Does deception happen at the end of the 1000 yrs., or only the attempt at it?

[martincisneros]

Rev 20:8 And he will be coming out to deceive all the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to be mobilizing them for battle, their number being as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up over the breadth of the earth, and surround the citadel of the saints and the beloved city. And fire descended from God out of heaven and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons.

Verse 8: he goes out to deceive and to mobilize a number as the sand of the sea.  Sand of the sea is interesting because of the Abrahamic Covenant about his descendants being as the sand of the sea.
Verse 9: the devil, Gog, and Magog go over the breadth of the earth to surround (the implication to me being that they're going to deceive, since some translations give the impression that Gog and Magog aren't actual nations, but fallen angels.  Michael is called a chief prince in Daniel 12:1 and so is Gog in Ezekiel 38:2, and Magog in Revelation 20 seems to be the same thing as Gog would be, even though Magog in Ezekiel 38:2 is a country.) the saints and the beloved city.  The saints are surrounded by the devil, Gog, and Magog and then fire falls from heaven putting a stop to anything really taking place.
Verse 10: the Adversary that was in the process of deceiving them is cast into the Lake of Fire and sulphur.

I know what some of you were taught in Premillenial Dispensational camps, 'cause I was virtually taught the same things, but look at the above passage really carefully.  This being after the 7th bowl was poured out seems to place it as related to the 7th letter of Revelation and we've got Christians buying gold tried in the fire there and opening the door to Christ before it's proverbially "too late."  Not too late to be with God for eternity, but before it's too late to have something meaningful on the New Earth instead of being consumed by the fire.

The implication to me is that mankind is graduating because fire doesn't fall to the earth [as in the case of when Elijah called fire down from heaven] without a human being calling for it.  And I personally believe that Lord Jesus isn't on the earth until Revelation 21:3.  Additionally, He rebuked the calling down of fire in His own ministry and isn't likely to change according to Hebrews 13:8.  If He were here during the millenium (the millenium is inferred by Revelation 20:4), then the fire couldn't fall at the close of the millenium.  And 1Thessalonians 4:16 infers that a trumpet blast from the trumpet of God and a shout with the voice of the archangel accompanies His coming and 2Thessalonians 1:7 says it'll only be the mighty angels that are in flaming fire (and I rechecked multiple translations on that). 

It doesn't say that half to two-thirds of humanity will be broiled alive right before the resurrection.  Angels alone are in the fire, according to St. Paul.  Otherwise, the people will have already been burned, so why subject them to the Lake of Fire as well?  But if the fire falling is simply Satan falling like lightning from heaven into the Lake of Fire, then to me that Scripturally makes more sense and fits the above passage with greater clarity.  The mass deception; the conspiracy never takes place.  It's definitely intended, but fire is called down from heaven and consumes the adversaries.  If Jesus Christ will always consume deception and conspiracy, then how is eternal punishment possible?  It's not!

[martincisneros]

I want to revisit this initial post of mine and try to clarify some of what I was saying, since I've drawn attention to this thread on another thread.  Not sure if I was as clear on the point with my initial post that the citadel of the saints is the whole planet at this time.  The emphasis is upon trying to surround them with deceptive ideas rather than upon having mobilized the nations in some great drama against Israel or Jerusalem or whatever.  And the adversary who is deceiving is cast into the fire.  It doesn't say that the adversary who had deceived them.  His lying tongue is burned in mid-sentence if I may put it that way for clarity on what I'm trying to say in this. 

Again, from the beginning, he will be coming out to deceive, and he surrounds, and as he's deceiving, i.e. or running his mouth, creating ideas and imaginations, etc., suddenly fire falls.  It doesn't list a bunch of human carnage or whatever.  Humanity had learned it's lesson, the Gospel has come to it's 100fold harvest, and humanity is ready for judgment (i.e. "well done").  2Peter 3 describes the coming judgment by fire as the opposite of man's judgment by water in Noah's Flood.  Well, if it's the opposite, then why read a fatalistic thing into it about nobody being saved by that time period but 8 people, as seems to be the indication in the interpretation that so many are as easily deceived as ever in previous eons of human history?

[IceDash]

gog and magog is russia right?

[sheila]

ID

   Gog and Magog are associated with the GREGORI....

   can you say Gregorian chant and calender and Church?

   Gregorian calender= to change the set times

   Gregorian chant=see sad song of Gregori in Enoch [5th

   heaven]- the song that accompanies their works

   church [armenian] Gregorian to awaken,literally vigilant

   doctrines of Armenism 1.conditional election and reprobation

  in opposition to pre-destination. 2.Universal redemption,

or atonement for all mankind,BUT only beleivers can be part-

takers of the benefit 3.That man ,in order to exercize true

faith,must be regenerated by the Holy spirit. 4. that man may

resist divine grace.5. that man may relapse from a state of grace

   [the theology of Wesleyans and Methodists]

[Doc]

I thought Gog/ Magog had something to do with the U.K. ?

[WhiteWings]

There are many theories as to who will join in this future invasion of Israel.  Before going through a list of the individual nations, I'll list some of the more common theories you'll hear when studying the prophecies from Ezekiel 38. 

Ezekiel 38:1-6  The word of the Lord came to me; Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal; prophesy against him and say: 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says:  I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal.  I will turn you around, put hooks in your jaws and bring you out with your whole army - your horsemen fully armed, and a great horde with large and small shields, all of them brandishing their swords.  Persia, Cush and Put will be with them, all with shields and helmets, also Gomer with all its troops, and Beth Togarmah from the far north with all its troops - the many nations with you.'

1.  Hashemite Kingdom Theory:  The Islamic Nations will come against Israel either by an Iraqi-led, Jordanian led, or Turkish led coalition.  The enemy from the north refers to the areas of Syria, Turkey, and Iraq.  These Islamic nations make up the lands occupied by Magog, Gomer, Togarmah, Meshech and Tubal.

2.  Caucus Theory:  Gog and Magog are the Arab nations in an alliance with the Muslim republics of the former Soviet Union.  This theory leaves out most of Russia, and includes only the southern part.

3.  All Europe theory:  Gog and Magog are the sons of Japeth thus the originators of the European races.  Gog and Magog therefore indicates all of Europe.  This is not a widely held theory and I could find little support for it.

4.  Russian Theory:  The Hebrew word 'rosh' in verse 3 is identified with Russia, 'Tubal' with Tiblisi or Tobolsk and 'Meshech' with Moscow, therefore Gog and Magog refers to Russia.  This is one of the most commonly held views and is based on a different interpretation of the Hebrew word Rosh (used as a noun rather than adjective), similarities in the pronunciation of words, and the Greek translation of Rosh referring to a tribe of people found in what is now Russia.

5.  Indo-European Theory:  Gog and Magog include the nations descending from Japheth: Russia, the Caucasus(Turkey), Iraq, and the Islamic republics of Central Asia.  The coalition is an alliance of Arab nations, Muslim republics, Georgia, southern Russia and the Black sea area.

These are some of the theories you will find if you do any research into the prophecies of Ezekiel 38.  You may also find interpretations that are a combination of these, and in fact, I tend to find more evidence for a version of the Indo-European and Caucacus Theory. 

Before looking at the participants of this invasion in more detail, it's important to understand that the war described in Ezekiel 38 is not the same as the war that will come at the end of the tribulation when Jesus returns to defeat the Antichrist and establish his millennial kingdom.  How do we know this?  The war at the end of the tribulation, known as Armageddon, is a world war.  Revelation tells us that this battle will involve all nations.  The war described in Ezekiel includes specific nations that invade Israel.  Also, Armageddon is at the climax of the tribulation, while the war described in Ezekiel comes well before then.

Ezekiel 38:1-7 gives 10 names as participants in the invasion of Israel that will follow the regathering of the Jews to their homeland.  First mentioned, is the land of Magog.  The most common identity for Magog is in Central Asia.  The Jewish historian Josephus said, "Magog founded the Magogians, called Scythians by the Greeks.  Scythians were a nomadic tribe who inhabited the ancient territory from Central Asia across the southern part of ancient Russia."  Today this area is inhabited by the former Soviet Republics of Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, and possibly northern parts of Afghanistan.  All of these nations that make up the land of Magog have one thing in common - Islam.  Militant Islam has been on the rise in these countries since the fall of the Soviet Union, when Islam no longer had to be practiced secretly.  Radical Islamic groups such as the Islamic Renaissance Party, the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, and Hizb ut-Tahrir al-Islam are working to reunite central Asian nations and ultimately the entire Muslim world.  It is from this part of the world that a leader will arise to bring together a great coalition of nations to invade Israel.

Probably the most debated verse is Ezekiel 38:3.  There are two main views on the identity of the Nations God is referring to in this verse.  I'll list both here, and let the reader decide which sounds most reasonable.

Rosh as Russia

Some versions of the Bible translate the Hebrew word 'rosh' in verse 3 as a noun referring to a place in Russia.  The least credible support for this view is that Rosh sounds like the modern-day name Russia and Meshech sounds like Moscow.  In this translation they treat rosh as a proper name.  The Greek translation translates Rosh as the proper name Ros.  Because the ancient Sarmations were known as the Ras, Rashu, and Rus and inhabited Rasapu which is now Southern Russia, some feel this verse points to Russia as the prince of Rosh.  Another support sited for this view is that verse 6 and 15 say the invasion will come from remote parts of the north, and Russia is more remote.

Rosh as chief

Other versions of the Bible translate 'rosh' as an adjective.  The argument here is that in the Massoretic text the words 'chief prince' carry the accents Tiphha and Zaqeph-gadol.  The Tiphha appears under the resh of the Hebrew word 'rosh'; the Zaqeph-gadol appears on top of the sin of the Hebrew word 'nish'.  The Tiphha to the right, underneath the initial consonant of the world 'rosh', or chief, is prepositive and does not mark the tone syllable.  The world 'nish' or prince has the accent Zaqeph-gadol which is disjunctive and indicates a pause.  So, verse three would read:

"Behold, I am against thee, o Gog, the prince, {pause} chief of Meshech and Tubal"

Rather than:

"Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal."

Here 'rosh' is translated head or chief as it is 423 other times in the Old Testament.

In short, if you believe 'rosh' should be translated as a proper noun you may find the interpretation that Russia will be a part of this coalition more reasonable.  If you believe 'rosh' should be an adjective here, you need only concern yourself with who Meshech and Tubal are.  I tend to have a problem with the "it sounds like Russia" theory, and find the translation of rosh as an adjective more believable, but to each his own.

Meshech and Tubal in verses 2 and 6, were the names of the 6th and 5th sons of Japheth, the son of Noah (Gen. 10:2).  Ezekiel 27:13 also mentions Meshech and Tubal as trading partners with Tyre (Modern Lebanon).  It's likely that Meshech and Tubal refer to the ancient Moshi/Mushki and Tubalu/Tibareni who dwelled in the area around, primarily south of, the Black and Caspian Sea in Ezekiel's day.  Today these nations would be in the modern country of Turkey, parts of Southern Russia and Northern Iran.  All areas with a Muslim majority.

Verse 6 adds Gomer and Beth-Togarmah to the coalition.  "Gomer" was the first son of Japheth.  The Gomerites were the ancient Cimmerians, expelled in 700 B.C. from the southern steppes of Russia into what is today Turkey.  "Togarmah" is the 3rd son of Gomer and beth at the beginning of the name is the Hebrew word for 'house' or 'place of'.  In Ezekiel's time there was a city in Cappodocia (Modern Turkey) known as Tegarma, Tagarma, Til-garimmu, and Takarama. 

The possibility that four of the names mentioned in Ezekiel are now in Turkey makes a pretty strong argument for Turkey being a part of the invasion of Israel.  Current circumstances in that country also lend this view some credibility.  Since the break-up of the Soviet Union, Turkey has been gaining inroads into Central Asia (Magog).  It is also linked to Central Asia both ethnically and linguistically, and has a growing number of political parties that support opposition to Israel, establishment of a Turkish Islamic Republic, and the worldwide rule of Islam.

Verse 5 brings three more names into the mix.  God tells us that "Persia, Cush and Put will be with them". 

Persia is a pretty easy one.  In 539 B.C. the Persians conquered the city of Babylon.  You only need look at a map of the ancient Persian Empire to see that it was centered in the nation known today as Iran.  In fact Iran was called Persia until 1935 when it was changed to Iran and then to the Islamic Republic of Iran in 1979 during the Iranian Revolution.  It's no secret that Iran is an archenemy of Israel and the West, and a supporter of the Palestinians.  They are actively working to get other Arab countries to change camps in their cooperation with the U.S. and Israel.

The ancient kingdom of Cush in Ezekiels time was the land just south of Egypt on the Nile River.  Today this land is occupied by Sudan.  Sudan is home to the National Islamic Front, is ruled by an Islamic military dictatorship, a strong supporter of Iraq, home to Osama bin Landen from 1991-1996, and harbors countless Islamic terrorist groups.  Sudan would easily fit into the coalition as it is already close allies with Iran, trading military supplies for docking rights on the Red Sea shipping routes.

Ancient Put was the land just west of Egypt, or what is today Libya.  Libya is another sponsor of terrorism, and openly refuses to recognize Israel's right to even exist.  When the coalition against Israel is formed, Libya won't have to be asked twice to join.

Verse 6 adds "and many people with you."  The nations listed specifically are all somewhat distant from Israel.  By adding "and many people with you", God may have been indicating that those nations and peoples in closer proximity to Israel will join the Jihad.  Other nations that might join the alliance are Iraq, Syria, Jordon, and Egypt.  All of them are Islamic nations, and all of them would not hesitate to support the destruction of Israel were the opportunity to join such a vast coalition presented to them.

Below is a list of the nations that are listed in Ezekiel as Israel's last-days enemies:
http://contenderministries.org/prophecy/gogmagogPF.php

[WhiteWings]

In the original language, Gog means: "under the roof". Magog means "out from under the roof". Gog refers to Satan as he is captive, bound, kept as it were: under a roof. Magog refers to Satan being unloosed. As Magog, he bursts forth from where he had been bound, under the roof. The scriptural references to Gog and Magog symbolize the full fury of Satan unchained: the unleashing of the spirit of antichrist.

http://www.newjerusalem.com/gog.htm

[WhiteWings]

I thought Gog/ Magog had something to do with the U.K. ?

This? http://www2.arts.gla.ac.uk/SESLL/STELLA/STARN/prose/GALT/GOG/gog.htm

[Doc]

I thought Gog/ Magog had something to do with the U.K. ?

This? http://www2.arts.gla.ac.uk/SESLL/STELLA/STARN/prose/GALT/GOG/gog.htm

That wasn't the source I looked at, but that's probably where they got it. It looks like similar, if more detailed info.