my letter to a supporter of annihilationism

[sven]

maybe it's interesting for someone, I wrote a letter to somebody who supports anihilationism but rejects the doctrine of hell very much.

Dear Sir,

I respect you for rejecting the damnable doctrine of eternal torment, a Christian from Switzerland wrote concerning this:

Perhaps due a spirit of fear that pipes up inside us, we have the questionable tendency to extend several threats of judgment into the infinite. So we're adding (Rev. 22:18)! We turn ages (aeons) into the singular and render it eternity. To centuries or millennia we add billions and billions of years. We turn the worms from Isaiah 66:24 that consume corpses into the scary soul-worm that torments the damned in all eternity.

Not little and harmless are the things we add in this manner, in fact it are very monstrous things, probably coming from the same spirit as the old Jewish apocrypha which couldn't describe the torments of the damned more expressly. The corpses of Isaiah 66:24 we've turned into creatures that are kept alive in a miraculous manner just to be eternally tormented. And all this things should the God do that created everything and of whom is written: He is love? Let's not forget that it is the devil, who tries to pervert and question the character of God.

This man was an universalist, now there are some things which you might to want consider:

You admit that Greek aionios more probably means age-lasting rather than ever-lasting but you say the age to come is eternal, there is no hint in the Bible to think so:

Ephesians 2:7 says ...that he might display in the coming ages (aeons) the surpassing riches of his grace in kindness towards us in Christ Jesus. (Darby Translation)

So there is obviously more than one age to come, maybe you can tell me why you think the age to come is eternal? Many claim so, I would be glad to know the reason why.

You wrote:

Eternal torture is sadistic, immoral and unjust, yet universalism suggests that people can do whatever evil they want and still ultimately be blessed with everlasting life and reconciliation. This would of course make universalism unjust as well.

The doctrine of universalism turned me back into Christianity (raised up evangelical) while the doctrine of hell disturbed me and annihilationism didn't bother me, eternal death – where's the problem? This seemed to be too easy. The doctrine of universalism convinced me of the necessity and reality of future judgment, there are people who say all go instantly to heaven – I don't think so, but they are the minority of biblical believers in universalism, on the other hand there were universalists who believed in millennia of a literal hellfire – but I don't think so also.  Even the most stubborn man should understand that if all are eventually saved, there will sure be punishment, maybe worse than death – but I believe mainly for the utterly wicked, imagine a man like Hitler being confronted with all the harm he did, the millions of people, he will realize, deeply regret and repent I believe and one day being reconciled to God and with those he did harm. For the common people I think punishment lasts no longer than lifetime but thats my personal opinion.

Can you tell me, what should be the purpose to resurrect billions of people from the dead just to annihilate them? To rise up the victims of the holocaust together with Hitler just to annihilate them altogether? To rise up a girl who was abused by a catholic priest and hated Christianity since then together with the man who did so, just to annihilate them both? To rise up Indians killed by "Christian" missionaries just to annihilate them altogether? Do you think this is divine justice? - to rise up people who were dead for several centuries and slept in peace, some of them victims of murder, rape etc., just to punish them only with the purpose to let them die an even more horrible death again afterwards.

John 12:32 says:

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (KJV)

1 John 2:2 says:

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (KJV)

Romans 5:18 says:

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. (KJV)

Colossians 1:17-20 says:

And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.  And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things (ta panta = the whole, everything) unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. (KJV)

A non canonic gospel of the so called Nazarenes is interesting:

Chapter 37 says:

The light shineth from the East even unto the West; out of the darkness, the Sun ariseth and goeth down into darkness again; so is it with man, from the ages unto the ages. When it cometh from the darkness, it is that he hath lived before, and when it goeth down again into darkness, it is that he may rest for a little and thereafter again exist. So through many changes must ye be made perfect, as it is written in the book of Job [I think in Job 2:9 in a version of the Septuagint], I am a wanderer, changing place after place and house after house, until I come unto the City and Mansion which is eternal.

And Chapter 88 says:

For by involution and evolution shall the salvation of all the world be accomplished: by the Descent of Spirit into matter, and the Ascent of matter into Spirit, through the ages.

I think this clearly teaches universalism (and reincarnation), the last I don't consider to be biblical but we find the idea of universalism among the very early church fathers, and some early writings. I'm convinced universalism was taught by Jesus and his disciples (especially revealed to Paul), and the very early Christians.

I don't want to accuse you, I respect you for fighting against this damnable doctrine as I said. But maybe you want to think about.

his answer:

Thanks for the pleasant, well thought-out letter.

The good thing is that we both agree that the eternal roasting doctrine is a hideously false teaching.

You make some really good points. I'm not totally closed to the idea of universalism; in other words, I'm not against exploring the possibility that it might be a valid doctrie, but would only adopt it if it can be proven Scripturally.

It seems to me the Bible overwhelmingly supports literal everlasting destruction as detailed in my two web-books.

Allow me to respond to you points:

You seem to be saying that, since eternity will be split into numerous ages, the damned will likely only be punished for an age corresponding to their guilt; afterward they will repent, be reconciled and inherit salvation/eternal life. You base this on Eph. 2:7 which reveals that eternity is referred to as "the coming ages."

It's a good point and I was aware of Eph. 2:7 when I went into detail concerning aionios, but felt I had already gone into too much detail. How do I harmonize this text with what I teach? Revelation 21:1-4 speaks of the passing of the old order of things and the beginning of a new era -- the era of the the new heaven and new earth. By all indications this is an eternal era wherein humanity is reconciled to God. Obviously eternity is a loooonnnng time and will be split into ages, hence "the coming ages."

The Bible repeatedly points out that the wages of sin is death, not just suffering, not just torment, not just separation from God, but death. (Read the opening section of Chapter Six for proof that death literally means death in the bible and not only separation). Death is ugly and always includes some measure of suffering, even if it's only for a moment, but the punishment you suggest doesn't inlcude death at all. Your opinion is that, for the common unbeliever, punishment will last about a lifetime. What do you mean by punisment? Will they be tormented for a lifetime? Will they suffer separation and a sense of loss for a lifetime? Where does death fit into this punishment? The main argument of my book is that over and over in His Word God reveals the punishment of sin to be death, destruction, dying, perishment, etc. The first chapter goes over this in detail. Check it out.

You ask, "what should be the purpose to resurrect billions of people from the dead just to annihilate them?" The fact is that the people being resurrected haven't even been judged yet. God is just and fair; he's not going to implement any type of punishment until the person is properly judged. Death isn't the same for everyone -- being shot in the head is different than slowly dying of starvation. Drowning is a much different death than slowly dying of cancer, etc. Read the section in Chapter Three entitled "Conscious Suffering Meted Out as Divine Justice Requires" and the one following it as well.

Also, I point out in Chapter Eight that Revelation 20:12-15 allows some measure of mystery concerning the white throne judgment. It does not say that everyone judged will automatically be cast into the lake of fire (i.e. second death) only that a person will be cast there if his or her name is not found written in the book of life. In that same chapter I comment on the possibilities concerning the situations you bring up, e.g. the girl molested by a Catholic priest and turning away from a life of service to God, etc. Read the sections titled "Post-Mortem Evangelization -- Can a Person be Saved after Death?," "Inclusivism and Restrictivism," "What about Purgatory" and "The Judgment Seat of Christ (the Judgment of Believers)." These sections address the difficult senarios you mention.

Two Scriptures I emphasize in these sections are Psalm 97:2 and 98:9. God will judge all peoples of the Earth with righteousness, justice and fairness. Why? Because it's His very nature. I realize that most rigid evangelicals believe that everyone judged at the white throne judgment is automatically damned and will hence be cast into the lake of fire, but please don't project this on to me. I never said this.

Read the section in Chapter Eight that specifically addresses universalism again, entitled "Universalism -- Will All Be Saved Eventually?" This section brings up my main objections to universalism. The Bible repeatedly states the polar opposite fates of the righteous and the wicked, those who believe and those who don't, those who accept and those who reject the Lord, for instance, John 3:16, Matthew 7:13-14, James 4:12, Romans 8:13, Galations 6:8, Proverbs 11:19, etc. The idea of universalism simply doesn't fit these plain-as-day proclamations.

Not to mention the numerous examples of literal destruction (i.e. damnation) detailed in Chapter Two, like weeds, trees, branches and chaff thrown into fire. What happens to such articals when cast into fire? Why, they burn up, of course! Or how about Jesus' example from Luke 19:11-27 where the enemies of the king are brought before him and killed in front of him. This clearly supports literal destruction rather than eternal roasting or universalism.

Again, I'm fully willing to accept universalism but only if it can be proven from Genesis to Revelation. Based upon the evidence detailed in my books I don't believe it can.

Take some time to think on what I've said, study it out  and pray about it, then get back to me. (This corresponds to the 'Berean Spirt' as detailed in Chapter Nine -- "The Five Theological Method Traits of the Noble Bereans" and "Apollos was Humble and Open Enough to Learn 'More Accurately' ").

Thanks for writing and God Bless You!

my reply

Thanks for your fast answer,

You wrote:

Again, I'm fully willing to accept universalism but only if it can be proven from Genesis to Revelation. Based upon the evidence detailed in my books I don't believe it can.

Genesis 12:3 says:

And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

I know this verse can be translated differently, but if you read it this way, it says all families shall be blessed.

The best hint in favor for universalism in the Old Testament is that Ezekiel says Sodom will be restored:

When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate. (Ez. 16:55)

I know several former Jehovah Witnesses who wish universalism to be true but can't believe it. I convinced my evangelical father that the doctrine of eternal torment is unbiblical, yet he doesn't believe all are saved though he says he would be glad if it be so.

I can understand if people just can't believe it. This might interest you A.E. Knoch answering C.T. Russel:

http://www.geocities.com/kencallen/russell.html

There are many scriptures in the epistles of Paul concerning the salvation of all.

About the revelation of John, you can interpret it in two ways, the one – 'the end of the world', a horrible inferno, most of mankind eternally lost, destroyed or worse, or you can interpret it as a new beginning, the beginning of the final restitution of all creatures.

From the background of the Philadelphian movement comes the Berleburger Bible, which was released from 1726 – 1742, a Bible commentary printed in the town Berleburg, which especially tried to interpret the eschatological content of the scripture. The words of the revelation of John: "And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new." are commented: "We're not allowed to exclude any creature fallen into sin and unto curse from the new-creation or final restitution because it simply says 'all things'." [This is a quote from a German article about universalism since the reformation]

About my personal opinion concerning judgment:

I think punishment upon human individuals lasts no longer than 50 years, the reason is the Jubilee year - but this is my personal speculation. I think people in front of the white throne will realize the evil and sin they did, this is the way they are punished by realizing and regret and feeling ashamed. The second death I thing is literal death, but there are very much other opinions even among universalists. But the last enemy to abolished is death, all universalists think this means the second death, if God wants to save all which you don't deny but most men suffer second death which we must assume, it's quite logic that the second death is the last enemy, it's at least more logic than to assume second death means an everlasting life worse than any death could be.

As I said I don't want to accuse you but I realized you're not that hostile against universalism, so I thought I can remove some of your stumbling blocks, you did a good job on your page I think, wouldn't be that bad if could believe in the final salvation of all.

his reply

If you get a chance (and are interested) read the first five sections of Chapter Nine on my Hell-know page. It goes into detail about how to properly interpret the Bible (i.e. hermeneutics) and the proper attitude we must all have in order to find the truth and have the truth "set us free" as Jesus said. I bring this up because I want to emphasize that I can only accept universalism or any other doctrine if it is Scriptural in a water-tight sense.

One hermeneutical law is that Scripture interprets Scripture. For instance, although 1 Cor. 15:22 states that "in christ all will be made alive," John 3:36 states, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but who ever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." Hence, the former passage can't mean all in the absolute sense.

If you want me to embrace your position you'll have to make your argument water-tight. All loose ends must be tied up; all gaping holes must be convincingly covered. Whatever the truth is on any given subject, the truth must properly fit into the puzzle of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation.

In my previous e-mail I stated quite a few objections to the Universalist perspective and you failed to address these points. If you want me to become convinced of your position you need to address and explain these points (such as the numerous passages that proclaim the two polar opposite destinies of those who accept and those who reject the LORD, as well as the many Biblical examples of literal destruction). Please go back to my previous e-mail and do so.

My Main objection to universalism is that it renders most eschatological passages absurd and nonsensical.

Take, for instance the most popular passage in the Bible: "For God so loved the world He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life." The concept of of universalism simply doesn't fit this plain-as-day text. If universalism is true we'd have to interpret the text this way: "For God so loved the world He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life [yet, thankfully, even those who do not believe and perish (the second death) will also ultimately receive eternal life]." Is this what Jesus really meant to say in John 3:16? If so, why did he leave all that extra vital information out? I find it absurd.

Also what about all the numerous warnings about damnation (i.e. literal everlasting destruction) in the Scriptures? One example is Luke 12:4-5. These warnings are rendered totally ineffective by the notion of universalism. 

I apologize if I'm coming across a bit blunt. I certainly don't want this to turn into a meanspirited exchange, but your position (or my position) must be water-tight; otherwise it's simply not true. And if it's not true it won't bless people and set them free because only the truth sets free.

If you're going to write back I insist on covincing explanations of the numerous objections I have pointed out. If not, you're wasting your time trying to convince me. No offense.

[sven]

my last reply:

Hello, I appreciate our discussion, you wrote:

One hermeneutical law is that Scripture interprets Scripture. For instance, although 1 Cor. 15:22 states that "in christ all will be made alive," John 3:36 states, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but who ever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." Hence, the former passage can't mean all in the absolute sense.

I can turn your argument around here but I don't want to become polemic, as 1 Cor. 15:22 states "in Christ all will be made alive", God's wrath can't remain forever or eternally on anyone. I'm no Greek expert but universalists like A.E. Knoch (who translated the Bible) e.g. say the Greek tense doesn't express a never ending condition in John 3:36. So we might understand God's wrath remains on them until..., as Isaiah 57:16 says: "For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth; for the spirit would fail before me, and the souls which I have made."

About John 3:16, as German translations translate: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not get lost, but have life eternal (aeonian).

Luke 19:10 says: ,,for the Son of man has come to seek and to save that which is lost." And Hebrews 13:8 says "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, and to-day, and to the ages (aeons) [to come]." (Darby Translation) and Lamentations 3:31 says: "For the Lord will not cast off for ever; but if he have caused grief, he will have compassion according to the multitude of his loving-kindnesses."

The Bible says Jesus came to save which is lost, and that he is the same into the aeons or in eternity as some German translations translate, I think this is a good argument that nobody will be eternally lost.

What do you think, was my argumentation biblically sound and convincing? I respect this man, please don't talk bad about him, he would like to believe in universalism, if he could. Are his arguments good? I thought I could him convince of universalism but it seems no - he didn't answer yet.

I hope it's ok for the man whom I wrote to make his answers public.

[WhiteWings]

Sven,

Nothing wrong with your replies. Perhaps to few examples to convince him? Especially on 3:16
He seems to be very open. He clear states he will follow any doctrine that is airtight.
Maybe he want to join this forum and discus? Or even start an annihilationism thread in the argumenst against universal salvation section?

[Paul Hazelwood]

What do you think, was my argumentation biblically sound and convincing? I respect this man, please don't talk bad about him, he would like to believe in universalism, if he could. Are his arguments good? I thought I could him convince of universalism but it seems no - he didn't answer yet.

I hope it's ok for the man whom I wrote to make his answers public.

Sven, The man seems to not really be doing anything but expecting you to address all his objections, that seems reasonable, so if your replying by picking a few of his points that your already sure of then you are probably not going to be very convincing.


Him writing a book does not make him right, but it does make it much more difficult to take someone who e-mails him seriously,  so if you really believe yourself that the bible teaches that all men are saved,  then address every single point in his letter. 

[sven]

his reply:



Hi Sven. Sorry it took so long to get back to you.

Let me address your points in order:

John 3:36 plainly states that those who reject Christ "will not see life" period. Why will they not see life? Simply because "the wages of sin is death." And the second death, that is, being cast into the lake of fire (which is what I mean by "damnation"), is an "everlasting punishment," as Paul describes it in 2 Thess. 1:9.

You, of course, argue that "everlasting" or "eternal" refer to 'age-lasting' and that eternity is split up into numerous ages, hence their punishment of death will only last an age, 50 years or less in your opinion. However, allow me to point out that the age-lasting destruction of those who reject reconciliation in Christ is always contrasted to the age-lasting life that the righteous will receive (e.g. Matt. 25:41,46; Galations 6:8; Matt. 7:13-14, etc.). Is there any doubt that the life the righteous will receive is eternal in nature? Of course not. So it is with those who have chosen to be God's enemies. If aionios means "age-lasting," how do I defend this reasoning?

I agree with you that eternity will be split up into ages, as noted in Eph. 2:7, but keep in mind that eternity is also described as an age (singular) in other texts like Mark 10:29-30 where jesus contrasts this present temporal age with the eternal age to come. This age to come is the age of the new heavens and new earth wherein God is reconcilied to humanity (that is, to those who love Him, not to those who reject Him). Yet Paul describes this coming age in terms of ages (plural), as noted above. How do we reconcile these passages. Simple. The hermeneutical law is that "Scripture interprets Scripture." The coming age of the new heavens and new earth is an eternal age (singular) which will naturally be split up into numerous ages (plural), just like the age of humanity on this present earth is split up into numerous ages or dispensations.

Another hermeneutical law is that "context is king;" hence, passages must be interpreted in light of the meaning of the whole section of Scripture in question. In other words, what do the surrounding texts say? Take, for example, the text you bring up, Isaiah 57:16: When God says He will not always be angry, who's He referring to? He's referring to the people mentioned in verse 15 -- the contrite, the lowly, the humble. In other words, God will not stay angry with those who humble themselves in repentance. Verse 16 is certainly not saying that God will remove His wrath from everyone without any conditions. The chapter ends with elaboration on the outcome of the wicked, obviously showing that God will not remove His wrath from them. "God resists the proud" and "pride goeth before destruction."

The Greek word translated as "perish" in John 3:16 is apollumi. Chapters One and Two of my web-book address the definition of this word in detail. I suggest that you read these chapters again. Words have prominent meanings and secondary meanings. The prominent meaning of appolumi is "to destroy utterly, to perish" while "lost" is a secondary meaning. God leaves no doubt in His Word as to what He means by apollumi in reference to the destiny of the unrighteous. The word is repeatedly applied to the eternal fate of those people who have chosen to be His enemy. See the section in Chapter One titled " 'Destroy both Soul and Body' as in Complete Incineration." This tells you everything you need to know. It points out that 2 Peter 2:6 states, "if he (God) condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrahh by burning them to ashes and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;". You see, the destruction of those who reject Christ will be like the utter incineration of Sodom and Gomorrah. According to the gospel of Luke Jesus uses the word apollumi to describe this destruction (incineration) in Luke 17:29, a destruction that is, again, an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly.

But there's more! Apollumi is backed up by numerous other words that refer to death and destruction as detailed in Chapter One. God leaves no room for doubt concerning the meaning of apollumi when it is applied to those who reject His salvation.

In addition, there are numerous EXAMPLES of literal destuction as plainly shown in Chapter Two. These examples, in turn, back up the meaning of apollumi as "complete literal destruction" when applied to those who choose to be God's enemies. Examples like weeds, trees, branches and chaff thrown into fire; examples like Luke 19:11-27 where the king's enemies are brought before him and killed in front of him.

And what about Hebrews 10:26-27 where it plainly states that the unrighteous will experience "raging fire that will consume the enemies of God." The chapter ends by stating that "it is a dreadful thhing to fall into the hands of the living God" (v. 31) and "we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved" (v. 39). Obviously not everyone will be saved; those who shrink back in unbelief and disobedience will be destroyed. There is no mention anywhere of any type of restoration some time after this destruction. No, it's an "everlasting destruction" as Paul said.

Occasionally apollumi can properly be translated as "lost" in reference to unbelievers. Read the sections in Chapter Two entitled "Apollumi as 'Lost'," "Apollumi as 'Lose' " and the one after that.

Lamentations 3:31 contextually refers to the Hebrews who were banished to Babylon after the fiery destruction of Jerusalem. The text can only be applied today to believers -- "wild offshoots" -- that have been ingrafted in via faith and obedience (see Romans 11 and 2 Cor. 1:20). It's not applicable to God's stubborn enemies, who are destined for destruction.

When I use the term "damnation" I'm referring to being cast into the lake of fire. This is damnation; the second death. Are you saying this is not a Biblical concept. If so, you're wrong.

You have a tendency to skip over some points (the ones you can't explain) and only address the ones you feel you can explain. Please address and explain all my objections to universalism. If you can't explain them, at least admit that you can't.

You say you've read "Hell Know" in its entirety, but it's obvious from your responses that you only skimmed over a lot of it. If you ever go through it again take your time, research the material in your Bible, reflect on it and pray about it.

You're obviously a seeker seeking truth and I commend you for that, but be sure to do a thorough and honest study of the Scriptures before drawing conclusions, as you obviously have with universalism.   

You seem pretty adamant about your beliefs in universalism and there may be nothing I can say to change your mind at this point. I just encourage you to be honest and thorough with God's Word and not force a belief into the text.

After all my years of study, meditation and prayer I strongly believe that literal everlasting destruction is the sound medium between the two extremes of eternal torure and universalism. Eternal torture is ridiculously too severe, yet universalism is ridiculously too lenient. Eternal torture is sadistic, immoral and unjust, yet unieversalism suggests that people can do whatever evil they want and still ultimately be blessed with everlasting life and reconciliation. This would of course make universalism unjust as well. Both these extremes should be rejected in favor of literal everlasting destruction -- the balanced, acceptable, reasonable and Scriptural view on the matter.

Please resist a hasty response. Take some time to reflect on what I've said, research it out and pray about it.

God Bless You as You Seek Him

than I wrote him, what I've written here:
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=4781.0

and this:

I write you a second letter,
to be honest first I saw this as a little challenge, knowing the Bible well and a bit Greek I wanted your doctrine to proof wrong just to convince myself that universalism is an unrejectable biblical doctrine cause of personal reasons. I realized many people defend a doctrine just for the sake of a kind of challenge. I thought it would be easier to convince you, I realize you're an honest man, but this topic is too important to see it as a challenge. I realized you would maybe believe in universalism if someone would prove it biblically, I will try this now more in detail, not seeing it longer as a challenge, we've discussed the verses about judgment. Now I will show you all the verses in favor for universalism.

I will quote the KJV, the Darby Translation (as it is the equivalent of a German translation as I'm used to and quite literal) and maybe the Lamsa Pechitta from the Aramaic.

Romans 5:18-19 (Darby)

so then as [it was] by one offence
towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness
towards all men for justification of life. For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man
the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one
the many will be constituted righteous.

It says all in verse 18 but many in verse 19, the first many in verse 19 mean obviously the all from verse 18, so the second many seem to be the same as the first many – that are all. Verse 18 seems to be even stronger in the Lamsa Bible:

In like manner as by one man's offence, condemnation came upon all men, even so by the righteousness of one man, will the victory unto life be to all men.

Romans 11:32-26 is also interesting (Lamsa)

For God has included all men in disobedience, that he might have mercy on every man. O the depth of the riches, the wisdom, and the knowledge of God! for no man has searched his judgment, and his ways are inscrutable. For who has known the mind of the LORD? or who has been his counsellor?  Or who has first given to him and then received from him?  For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to him be glory and blessing, for ever and ever. Amen.

1. Timothy 2:1-6 (KJV)

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

It would at least be rather cynical to thank for all men, if most of them would suffer everlasting torment, here is written God wants everybody to be saved (also 2. Peter 3:9) and that Jesus gave himself as a ransom for all men.

1. Timothy 4:9-11 is one of the most convincing verses, no wonder that same translations did corrupt this verse.

This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. These things command and teach.

Darby corrupted this verse by changing savior in preserver, the Jehovah Witnesses added all sorts of men instead all men – but it's the same Greek word savior as in all other occurrences.

There are also some interesting verses in the Gospel of John, you might accuse me here, I took them out of context.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

1. John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The world is completely associated negative in the epistle of John.

1. Corinthians 15:22-29 (Darby)

For as in the Adam all die, thus also in the Christ all shall be made alive. But each in his own rank: [the] first-fruits, Christ; then those that are the Christ's at his coming. Then the end, when he gives up the kingdom to him [who is] God and Father; when he shall have annulled all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign until he put all enemies under his feet. [The] last enemy [that] is annulled [is] death. For he has put all things in subjection under his feet. But when he says that all things are put in subjection, [it is] evident that [it is] except him who put all things in subjection to him. But when all things shall have been brought into subjection to him, then the Son also himself shall be placed in subjection to him who put all things in subjection to him, that God may be all in all.

If you have several printed bibles, please compare this carefully with the last two chapters of the Revelation. Here are three groups mentioned that are made alive, the Greek word here seems to be a specific word, it doesn't just mean the resurrection for judgment. Those who suffer a second death, can't be made alive. All universalists believe the last enemy which is death, means actually the second death. The end occurs when Jesus gives the reign to the Father, this time must go beyond the Revelation of John.

Revelation 11:15 (Darby)

And the seventh angel sounded [his] trumpet: and there were great voices in the heaven, saying, The kingdom of the world of our Lord and of his Christ is come, and he shall reign to the ages of ages.

Remember Jesus shall reign until.., the ages of ages (commonly rendered for ever and ever) therefore probably not eternal.

Revelation 21:24

And the nations shall walk by its light; and the kings of the earth bring their glory to it.

In 1 Corinthians we've read when he shall have annulled all rule and all authority and power

This is a further hint, that 1 Corinthians goes beyond the Revelation.

Also Revelation 22:5

And night shall not be any more, and no need of a lamp, and light of [the] sun; for [the] Lord God shall shine upon them, and they shall reign to the ages of ages.

One of most evident texts for universalism is Colossians 1:16-20, it's plainer in some German translations.

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in  all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

All things, Greek ta panta, the whole, everything, the universe – all in the strongest possible term as far as I know, you might want to look these verses in this interlinear translation, it seems to comes next to what I have in mind: http://apostolicbible.com/downbookAB.htm (pdf. format).

 
Now you've seen some of these verses, if taken literally support universalism. There have always been people with a literal and others with a more allegorical interpretation of scripture. Now some kind of allegorical arguments in favor for universalism.
The parables of the prodigal son, the lost sheep and the lost coin. I've read an interesting interpretation of this:

The son knew he was lost and able to come back on his own and was welcomed.
The sheep knew it was lost but unable to come back on its own, it was found and saved.
The coin neither knew it was lost nor was able to come back, yet it was found and saved.
So any kind of men will be saved.

The parable with the 99 sheep in fact does imply that all 100 sheep are finally saved, at least you can interpret it this way.

1. Corinthians 15:55 is also interesting:

The Textus Receptus Greek text has:

where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory? (Young's Literal)

it's a quote from Hosea 13:14

where O death, are thy plagues? where, O Sheol, is thy destruction? (Darby)

The older Greek texts, for example the Codex Sinaiticus have in 1. Corinthians 15:55

Where, O death, [is] thy sting? where, O death, thy victory? (Darby)

One of the concordant writers interpreted this the following, I know it's speculation but anyway:

As Hades is destroyed together with the unbelievers in the lake of fire, Hades no longer exists, but second death does, which is the last enemy. Paul wrote this with a special meaning according to this man's view, so we might understand: Where [first] death is your victory? Where [second] death is your victory?

And another allegorical interpretation:

Songs of Songs 8:6 say love is as strong as death, but while death will be abolished, love will remain (1. Co 13:13), therefore can be no eternal death which they interpret as separation from God.
 
And another one, Mark 9:47-49 (Young's Literal)

...be cast to the gehenna of the fire - where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched; for every one with fire shall be salted, and every sacrifice with salt shall be salted.

Some interpret this Gehenna being a kind of purgatory, I don't share this view personally.

Theodore of Mopsuestia, a universalist of the early church like many others (e.g. Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Athanasius, Gregory of Nyssa as far as I know) wrote according to wikipedia:

The wicked who have committed evil the whole period of their lives shall be punished till they learn that, by continuing in sin, they only continue in misery. And when, by this means, they shall have been brought to fear God, and to regard him with good will, they shall obtain the enjoyment of his grace. For he never would have said, 'until thou hast paid the uttermost farthing,' unless we can be released from suffering after having suffered adequately for sin; nor would he have said, 'he shall be beaten with many stripes,' and again, 'he shall be beaten with few stripes,' unless the punishment to be endured for sin will have an end.

Compare this with Luke 12:48+59 and maybe Psalm 107

As you see, there are both literal and allegorical arguments to support universalism and it would fit to the character of Jesus as portrayed in the gospels and many of the very early church fathers believed it. I only know for sure that Tertullian and Augustine taught eternal torment, both were no native Greek speakers.

[WhiteWings]

Sven, I think this is a much stronger reply than the previous one  :thumbsup:

If not to much off-topic I have a question.
If the eternal always seems to turn out as age-during in punishment and reward verses; where exactly is real endless life promissed?

[MusicLover123]

Sven, I think this is a much stronger reply than the previous one  :thumbsup:

If not to much off-topic I have a question.
If the eternal always seems to turn out as age-during in punishment and reward verses; where exactly is real endless life promissed?

Tony, you probably already know the answer by now, but it would be when we put on immortality and made incorruptible.

[eaglesway]

W.W. & Sven

My thought on that is that aion, being a translation of the Hebrew word olam, is an indeterminate period determined by the subject it is attached to or describes. In other words, a slave who did not want to leave at the end of his/her indenture was to serve their master "olam"- translated "forever" in the KJV, but obviously meaning until the end of their lifetime.

Transliteration: olam. Phonetic Spelling: (o-lawm') Short Definition: forever. NAS Exhaustive Concordance. Word Origin from an unused word. Definition long duration, antiquity, futurity. NASB Translation ages (1), all successive (1), always (1), ancient (13), ancient times (3), continual (1), days of old (1), eternal (2), eternity ...

There are verses, like Gen 6:4 where olam means the distant past, or an age/world far removed from the present.

Hebrews 1:3
...but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.(NIV)

...in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world NASB

...has at the end of these days spoken to us through a Son, who is the pre-destined Lord of the universe, and through whom He made the Ages. Weymouth

In Heb 1:3 aionas is translated as world/worlds in the majority of translations. "olam" also had the connotation of worlds as in "the world of another age or vastly different time". One definition given of olam is "other world" and in Hebrew, today "olam ha-ze" means this present evil world and "olam ha-ba" means the blessed world to come. "Tikkun olam" means repairing the world.

The life "of the ages" transcends time, perhaps- the "ages to come" promised to us in which God will demonstrate "the surpassing riches of His kindness toward us" (Eph 2:7)

One thought Sven, that I have concerning the judgment of the wicked, relates to this concept of "olam". Jesus said, "You shall not escape until you have paid the last penny"

What is the last penny? IMO it is repentance and faith towards God, which is the basis of reconciliation, "Every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or in earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess......" The last adversary to be destroyed will be death..."

So I believe the "olam" or "aion" of judgment lasts for each, whoever finds theirself in it, only until they have seen their true selves in the mirror and repented in the light of the "glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ", whose eyes are as flames of fire and whose word is "living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, dividing asunder soul and spirit, bone and marrow making manifest the secret thoughts of the heart"

All the aions are "olam"- determined by their purpose in the mind of God- from His purpose for the whole universe in all time- the restoration of all things until God is all in all through the "gathering together of all things into one in Christ".....down to the aion/olam of the greatest wicked ones down to least offenders- "many stripes, few stripes". Ages with purposes of judgment, ages with purposes of grace and forgiveness, "all the generations of the ages of ages"(Eph 3:21) folding into the "age of ages". I believe each person who awakens under the grace of God steps into that age which is eternal, and watches the "ages to come" fold into it from the elevated position of being "seated with Christ in the heavenly realms wherein are all spiritual blessings"(Eph 3 i think)

I love what these verses in Romans 16 present....

Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past(chronois aioniois), 26but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God(aioniou Theou), has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; 27to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever(to the ages of the ages aionos ton aionon).

"times of the ages" or "long ages past"- all that falls well within the general definition of "olam"- "the world to come" or as I would like "the age/world" to come.

"aioniou Theou".. for me(why I like Hebrew understandings of shady definitions) the "olam God"....but if one prefers Grk "the God of ages" pr "age- during" God(seems a little stiff and prosaic that way to me) or perhaps implied by context "God who created the ages and all worlds and times and therefore obviously transcends all time and is not subject to it because He is "olam olam"  :winkgrin:(olam was frequently doubled by the prophets when referring to the creator).

All these things are "olam"- known only to the only wise God who alone dwells in unapproachable light- but when death is destroyed and God is "all in all" it is clear that there will no longer be any terminus to the age of life that Jesus refers to(imo) when He says "aionios zoe". When He says "aionios pyr(Grk)" or "olam esh"(Heb) it is clear to me that the fire will only burn in the sense of judgment until one has "paid the last penny" whether "many stripes or few"- at which point the fire will become the very nature of another consummated being in the grace and glory of God within whom the fire will forever burn as joy unspeakable and full of glory :o)

[jabcat]

One thought Sven, that I have concerning the judgment of the wicked, relates to this concept of "olam". Jesus said, "You shall not escape until you have paid the last penny"

What is the last penny? IMO it is repentance and faith towards God, which is the basis of reconciliation, "Every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or in earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess......" The last adversary to be destroyed will be death..."


All these things are "olam"- known only to the only wise God who alone dwells in unapproachable light

:thumbsup:

[sheila]

Isaaih 28;18 YOUR COVENAT WITH DEATH WILL BE ANNULLED;YOUR AGREEMENT WITH THE GRAVE WILL NOT STAND.

O'Death!Where is thy sting?I SHALL BE THY PLAGUES.! DIRECT 'WORD of GOD" Lo!I COME,in the roll of the book it is written of me. :2c:

My people were sold for nothing! AND WITHOUT MONEY THEY SHALL BE REDEEMED......


there are those who worship mammon...the PRINCE of this world.

whopaid the last penny? satan entered Judas[who already had a devil[liar] and was a theif...the 30 pieces of silver were 'paid'as Jesus hire..to buy the potters field for

the poor.[the right of God the potter to make over a vessel [man]for a sacred use[from same lump]in the image of  Father/Christ.

the last penny paid..blood money

all that ever came before me were robbers and thieves.Fool! Raca!  The foolishness of the CROSS! the Lamb that takes away ALL the sin of the world....IF I BE LIFTED UP

I SHALL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME.  A HOUSE OF PRAYER FOR ALL MEN.....


Luke6;22 Blessed are you when men hate you,exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil...BECAUSE OF THE SON OF MAN.[if I be lifted up,I shall draw ALL

men unto me]

Because "you say "you see..your sin remains[you still think God is counting sins against men/shrinkback to Law without mercy/grace]BECOME RECONCILED UNTO GOD.


Matt 18;17 A brother who sins[falls short of love] against you...go and show him his fault[my letter to a supporter..] if he listens you have won your brother..if not

take two or  three wittnesses with you[Iprefer God's direct word testimony and Jesus's word. testimony.and the Holy spirit in the scriptures.] if still not...take it to the

church.if he still refuses to listen..treat him as a  pagan.[Bind/loose  in earth/heaven.]


then we have these words as the Word of God come in flesh met it's final enemy [death]Father forgive them,they know not what they do.Hard to repent when you are

blinded to your error/fault still. But then..while we were still yet sinners[dwelling in weak corruptible/body of death] He died for us....ALL. Romans8;32...how much more

will He not  freely give us all things.

[Lazarus Short]

When I wrote my book, I did so with an eye to see the following as theories:

Damnationism - I didn't find much support (being generous), once I had dug down to what key terms really meant.  :declare:

Annihilationism - I didn't find much support for it at all, but some.  :winkgrin: Still a better theory than Damnation.  :Chinscratch:

Universalism - as a theory, well supported; as theology, proven, as far as this amateur theologian can prove anything.  :gimmefive:

[marie glen]

What is the last penny? IMO it is repentance and faith towards God, which is the basis of reconciliation, "Every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or in earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess......" The last adversary to be destroyed will be death..."

Amen!! brothers and sister, posts above, amen! "Last" penny, strongly suggests there is a "last" one! A last penny owed. If I pay the last penny of a debt, I'm free of the debt! And, how does that come about? ..Only through Jesus.. And "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord"..
   :banana: :thumbsup:

[JamesH]

When I wrote my book, I did so with an eye to see the following as theories:

Damnationism - I didn't find much support (being generous), once I had dug down to what key terms really meant.  :declare:

Annihilationism - I didn't find much support for it at all, but some.  :winkgrin: Still a better theory than Damnation.  :Chinscratch:

Universalism - as a theory, well supported; as theology, proven, as far as this amateur theologian can prove anything.  :gimmefive:

Book?

[MusicLover123]

When I wrote my book, I did so with an eye to see the following as theories:

Damnationism - I didn't find much support (being generous), once I had dug down to what key terms really meant.  :declare:

Annihilationism - I didn't find much support for it at all, but some.  :winkgrin: Still a better theory than Damnation.  :Chinscratch:

Universalism - as a theory, well supported; as theology, proven, as far as this amateur theologian can prove anything.  :gimmefive:

Book?

Pretty sure it is "Heaven, yes, Hell, no"

Right Lazarus?

[marie glen]

When I wrote my book, I did so with an eye to see the following as theories:

Damnationism - I didn't find much support (being generous), once I had dug down to what key terms really meant.  :declare:

Annihilationism - I didn't find much support for it at all, but some.  :winkgrin: Still a better theory than Damnation.  :Chinscratch:

Universalism - as a theory, well supported; as theology, proven, as far as this amateur theologian can prove anything.  :gimmefive:

Book?

Pretty sure it is "Heaven, yes, Hell, no"

Right Lazarus?

yes  :thumbsup: but I believe he's looking for a new title.  Here's the link to the discussion which is, I believe what's in the book - Laz's titled posts.. likely with the book being edited a bit:
http://tentmaker.org/forum/hellbusters-hallow/heaven-yes-hell-no/

[MusicLover123]

When I wrote my book, I did so with an eye to see the following as theories:

Damnationism - I didn't find much support (being generous), once I had dug down to what key terms really meant.  :declare:

Annihilationism - I didn't find much support for it at all, but some.  :winkgrin: Still a better theory than Damnation.  :Chinscratch:

Universalism - as a theory, well supported; as theology, proven, as far as this amateur theologian can prove anything.  :gimmefive:

Book?

Pretty sure it is "Heaven, yes, Hell, no"

Right Lazarus?

yes  :thumbsup: but I believe he's looking for a new title.  Here's the link to the discussion which is, I believe what's in the book - Laz's titled posts.. likely with the book being edited a bit:
http://tentmaker.org/forum/hellbusters-hallow/heaven-yes-hell-no/

Which I have suggested 18 titles and counting for :icon_jokercolor:

[rosered]

  I am so under the impression that if they do not believe Jesus  WORD of Life ,

  What makes  anyone think  they will believe one raised from the dead ? 

25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me will live, even though he dies. 26And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"...

John 1:4
In Him was life, and that life was the light of men.    :dsunny:

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:21
For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom He wishes.

John 5:26
For as the Father has life in Himself, so also He has granted the Son to have life in Himself.

John 6:39
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Colossians 3:4
When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

Revelation 1:18
the Living One. I was dead, and behold, now I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of Death and of Hades. 

   The   truth is , satan is a liar  and murderer too!!!!   :HeartThrob:

[JamesH]

When I wrote my book, I did so with an eye to see the following as theories:

Damnationism - I didn't find much support (being generous), once I had dug down to what key terms really meant.  :declare:

Annihilationism - I didn't find much support for it at all, but some.  :winkgrin: Still a better theory than Damnation.  :Chinscratch:

Universalism - as a theory, well supported; as theology, proven, as far as this amateur theologian can prove anything.  :gimmefive:

Book?

Pretty sure it is "Heaven, yes, Hell, no"

Right Lazarus?

Ah ok. Got that bookmarked!