Revelation 13:7-8, 14:9-10

[WhiteWings]

Revelation 13:7  And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
===> Saints are conquered. Likely means killed.

Revelation 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
===> That means the saints are dead or switched camp.



Revelation 14:9-10  And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
===> The followers ot the beast are defeated.

Basicly humanity has two choices. Be slaughtered by the beast or by God.
Thoughts....?

[peacemaker]

"They went out on the field prepared for the slaughter, but he overwhelmed them in the second half."

peacemaker

[CHB]

Revelation 13:7  And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
===> Saints are conquered. Likely means killed.

Revelation 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
===> That means the saints are dead or switched camp.



Revelation 14:9-10  And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
===> The followers ot the beast are defeated.

Basicly humanity has two choices. Be slaughtered by the beast or by God.
Thoughts....?

No, WhiteWings,     they aren't going to be slaughtered by God just taught better. 

CHB

[Gab]

Revelation 13:7  And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
===> Saints are conquered. Likely means killed.

Doesn't have to, although it doesn't say the contrary either.  The Greek word translated into "overcome" is nikao, which simply means "to conquer".  In other words, the beast will take over and take control from the saints.

Revelation 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
===> That means the saints are dead or switched camp.

Not necessarily.  The comma there in that sentence is not in the original Greek, which reads literally as follows:

kai proskunesousin auto pantes oi katoikountes epi tes ges on ou gegraptai ta onomata en te biblo tes zoes tou arniou esphagmenou apo kataboles kosmou

This can be literally translated as follows:

and shall-be-worshiping it all the ones-dwelling on the earth of-whom not has-been-written the name of-him in the scroll of-the life of-the lamb of-the one-having-been-slain from laying-down of-world

Or, put into readable but still literal English:

"And those shall be worshiping it who are all the ones dwelling on the earth whose name has not been written in the scroll of life of the lamb that was slain from the laying down of the world."

(Or, alternatively, "written in the scroll of life (of the lamb that was slain) from the laying down of the world" - the bare text is unclear regarding whether "from the laying down of the world" modifies the verb "written" or the verb "slain".)

The comma in the passage you quote completely and incorrectly changes the meaning of the sentence - it says that all those whose name has not been written in the scroll of life (or small book; the word is the same) will worship the beast, not that all those on Earth will be worshiping the beast.

Revelation 14:9-10  And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
===> The followers ot the beast are defeated.

As has been said before, the "fire and brimstone" is in all likelihood symbolism for the idea that they will be purified and placed in the presence of the divine.  Not exactly a "slaughter".

[sheila]

   a beast lacketh 'understanding'  as well as babylon sitting

  atop the beast.[my people perish through lack of

understanding, and the harlot drunk with the blood of the saints]

   the saints were overcome ..the court sit and judgement was

  given in favour of the saints.  a Son of man was found worthy

    to open the scrolls[give understanding] Have no fear little

 flock,for I HAVE OVERCOME THE WORLD

[WhiteWings]

The comma in the passage you quote completely and incorrectly changes the meaning of the sentence - it says that all those whose name has not been written in the scroll of life (or small book; the word is the same) will worship the beast, not that all those on Earth will be worshiping the beast.

Psalms 139:14-16 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.  My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.  Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

The blue part seems to say the book of life was written before our birth.
That can be understood in several ways.
a] Predestined.
b] Our behaviour, saint or sinner, has nothing to do with being written in that book.
c] God knew who would be tge saint and sinner and wrote down the names in advance.

What does that read part mean? Likely perfect and fashioning are about becoming rightious.
Is everyone in the book of life? Sounds a bit that way but another verse speaks of 'blotted out'

[gregoryfl]

The comma in the passage you quote completely and incorrectly changes the meaning of the sentence - it says that all those whose name has not been written in the scroll of life (or small book; the word is the same) will worship the beast, not that all those on Earth will be worshiping the beast.

Psalms 139:14-16 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.  My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.  Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

What does that read part mean? Likely perfect and fashioning are about becoming rightious.
Is everyone in the book of life? Sounds a bit that way but another verse speaks of 'blotted out'

Whitewings,

It is actually speaking about our days [Imim] that were formed [itzru]. All man's deeds and the end of the days are revealed before him as if they were already formed, although not one of them was in existence, and not one was yet in the world.

Ron

[WhiteWings]

Ron,

What exactly does 'formed' mean in your opinion?

[gregoryfl]

It means to shape. To take something and give it form. The first use of the word is in Genesis 2:7, where God [forms] man from the dust of the ground. Since it speaks of our days 'being shaped', that tells me that God is the one who has in some way shaped our days. Exactly to what extent and in what way I realize is a subject of much controversy, so I will leave it to each to search out themselves as to the answer to that.

Ron

[WhiteWings]

Ron, that was not the answer I hoped for. I know what form means. I was looking for the tense.
According to (some) Hebrew scholars man/Adam is translated wrong at least 50% of the creation account.
Instead of man it should be manking/humankind.
Many translations write: "formed man" => task completed.
But not all agree on that. It should read something like: Started forming man(kind). => ongoing process.
"in continuance were fashioned" also seems to point to an ongoing process.
I think forming is not merely 'making a body' but also thinks like teaching, guiding, punishing,...

 

[gregoryfl]

Ron, that was not the answer I hoped for. I know what form means. I was looking for the tense.
According to (some) Hebrew scholars man/Adam is translated wrong at least 50% of the creation account.
Instead of man it should be manking/humankind.
Many translations write: "formed man" => task completed.
But not all agree on that. It should read something like: Started forming man(kind). => ongoing process.
"in continuance were fashioned" also seems to point to an ongoing process.
I think forming is not merely 'making a body' but also thinks like teaching, guiding, punishing,...

 

The tense is of completed action. But don't think that it means what you think it might mean. In Ancient Hebrew, there are only 2 tenses, actions that are complete, and actions that are incomplete. Interestingly, when they wanted to communicate an action that would take place over time with certainty, they would speak of it as though it were completed. A classic example is that of Abraham. Before Abraham had one child, God said these words to him:

"I HAVE MADE you the father of many nations." Paul spoke of it as calling those things which are not [which is our perspective] as though they were [which is God's perspective].

God's having formed man from the dust of the ground is spoken of as a completed action, for in itself it was indeed complete, ready to receive the breath of life so that he would become a living soul. However, that does not mean that nothing else would be done, for we know that God would later separate out of man the female and form her as well to bring her to the man.

With regard to the days being formed [completed action], think of it this way. The fact that it is spoken of in that way should fill our hearts with assurance, for that is the reason David wrote it. All of our days are indeed formed, and in the hands of a loving God. From our perspective we are living out those days and they are new to us, but not from God's perspective. He who knows the end from the beginning, and in my opinion framed the end from the beginning, gives me the greatest comfort, to know that not one molecule of God's creation is running around out there without our Father's loving control. It is definitely an ongoing process, from our standpoint in time, but not from God's.

The teaching, guiding, punishing, discipline, and whatever else that makes up our lives is in fact BOTH a process, and one that is completed as well, which guarantees the outcome, praise God. :)

Ron

[sheila]

   because..in the beginning was the 'word'..it is that

 spoken 'word' that goes forth and doesn't return void..of

purpose for which it was sent.

   so..if it has been spoken..it is a sure promise..and is as good

 as done.....

    faith is counted as righteousness for beleiving God..that

the 'word' He spoke will be fulfilled

[sheila]

p.s.  the mere act of speaking sends for breath/spirit

[WhiteWings]

Ron thanks for the explanation.
You gave the example of Abraham that a past tense can also mean a ongoing process with a certain result.
Then my thought is: How many more of similar situations are there in the Bible?
Just as thought, nothing else:
If Adam is mankind. And God wants to create mankind for life in heaven then that process, that at first sight reading the past tense in English, may actually be a process that ends when the Son submits His kingdom to Father.

Yeah Ron, I'm sure you gave a very honest and correct answer, but it gives more problems than it solves 
Better an unsolved truth than a seemingly solved error....

[Barry DuPont]

Rev 13:6   And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. {the firstfruits}
Rev 13:7   And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 
Rev 13:8   And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 

13:7 answers to:
1Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 
Hbr 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

They were expecting this.
Barry 
 

[rosered]

 
 good stuff guys , All..........
  thanks , it all helps  me to grasp this concept  better,  formed, fashioned and made   
   by His breath /  Holy Spirit

  rose