A curse on him who keeps his sword from bloodshed." [Jer. 13:14; 48:10]

[Nancy]

JHAKH,
You said in one post that you sometimes feel that you would like to leave the bible far behind.  Maybe that is the Spirit telling you to give it a rest for a while and observe nature and feel His presence in silence.
Maybe you will think me a devil for saying this because you have been taught that to be a good 'christian' you have to read the bible.  Where did St. Paul get his teachings from? Certainly not from the OT or the gospels, they weren't even written yet.  He got them directly from the Spirit.
Be restful, at peace with the Spirit, let Him teach you.

Godbless
Nancy

[jesushandsarekindhands]

With respect Seth; to me bloodshed, however way you want to view it is 'bloodshed'.  Spirits don't bleed.

Trying to read this 'spiritually' looks like an excuse to me to be honest, to just simply whisk away a seemingly 'bad' passage.  If i told an atheist he wasn't reading this passage spiritually and he was just carnally minded he would laugh in my face and rightly accuse me of making excuses for the 'bad' parts in the Bible.

EG stoning someone to death, does mean stoning. 
That's why we find even people in the NT trying to stone Jesus etc....The Jews knew exactly what God meant when he said "Stone them to death".  Or 'you shall not suffer a witch to live' etc etc.

I respect your opinion however.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

JHAKH,
You said in one post that you sometimes feel that you would like to leave the bible far behind.  Maybe that is the Spirit telling you to give it a rest for a while and observe nature and feel His presence in silence.
Maybe you will think me a devil for saying this because you have been taught that to be a good 'christian' you have to read the bible.  Where did St. Paul get his teachings from? Certainly not from the OT or the gospels, they weren't even written yet.  He got them directly from the Spirit.
Be restful, at peace with the Spirit, let Him teach you.

Godbless
Nancy

Well Nancy, more and more recently I have been trusting more in my feelings and what God has done in my life, rather than on what people have written about him which much of has been lost in translation or mistranslated. 

Years ago when I inwardly 'knew' by revelation that God would save all, what i knew about God was battling with the writings about God that were saying that God will burn most of mankind in flames forever.  I still believed deep inside that God wasn't like that, that there must have been some kind of translation error...I knew something was wrong.
Then of course i found out about theons and aeons and how the word hell was added etc etc and it confirmed what i inwardly already knew.

Its a very strange and sometimes overwhelming subject that i sometimes need a rest from, and i do take frequent rests.  I'm not sure I could give up altogether, but i do feel like it sometimes because sometimes it feels like im not getting anywhere,  the only thing that has kept me looking for God over the years has been the 'miracles' he did in my life which to me were beyond all understanding and chance....  If it wasn't for them, I really very much doubt I would be here right now.  I feel i have been led here, and feel i am being led to start a Universalist church or group in my area, but i'm not doing anything until God gives me a clear go ahead (if he does).  I'll just have to see what happens, as it stands I don't have the faith to preach to others yet.

[Seth]

With respect Seth; to me bloodshed, however way you want to view it is 'bloodshed'.  Spirits don't bleed.

Trying to read this 'spiritually' looks like an excuse to me to be honest, to just simply whisk away a seemingly 'bad' passage.  If i told an atheist he wasn't reading this passage spiritually and he was just carnally minded he would laugh in my face and rightly accuse me of making excuses for the 'bad' parts in the Bible.

EG stoning someone to death, does mean stoning. 
That's why we find even people in the NT trying to stone Jesus etc....The Jews knew exactly what God meant when he said "Stone them to death".  Or 'you shall not suffer a witch to live' etc etc.

I respect your opinion however.

HI JHAKH,

Bloodshed and stoning mean different things to the carnal and the spiritual.

Do you agree there are two different swords? An earthy weapon of steel, and the Word of God?

Paul said that we have weapons of war, but they are not carnal weapons. Physical things have a spiritual counterpart. That is the essence of scriptural metaphors and it is how God veiled the truth.

You have to be very careful about viewing Spiritual discernment as "an excuse."

[Nancy]

hi ya JHAKH,

[Nancy]

hi there JHAKH,
have you heard of Lionel Fanthorpe. His book Mysteries of the bible is very thought provoking.
it may be what you are looking for clarity in your views.
Godbless
Nancy

[WhiteWings]

.

[Cardinal]

  Cute image for illustration, but really, it's the "wrong" one. The image should be of the High Priest since the elements of "armor" relate to the High Priest's garments. Blessings......

[jesushandsarekindhands]

So when God said two men who lie together are to be stoned to death what happened to them?  Were they stoned to death?  Or were they spiritually stoned? 

Somethings one can view something as spiritual, other times, one cannot.

Leviticus 20

 9 " 'If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head.

 10 " 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

 11 " 'If a man sleeps with his father's wife, he has dishonored his father. Both the man and the woman must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

 12 " 'If a man sleeps with his daughter-in-law, both of them must be put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be on their own heads.

 13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

 14 " 'If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you.

 15 " 'If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he must be put to death, and you must kill the animal.

 16 " 'If a woman approaches an animal to have sexual relations with it, kill both the woman and the animal. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

 17 " 'If a man marries his sister, the daughter of either his father or his mother, and they have sexual relations, it is a disgrace. They must be cut off before the eyes of their people. He has dishonored his sister and will be held responsible.

 18 " 'If a man lies with a woman during her monthly period and has sexual relations with her, he has exposed the source of her flow, and she has also uncovered it. Both of them must be cut off from their people.

 19 " 'Do not have sexual relations with the sister of either your mother or your father, for that would dishonor a close relative; both of you would be held responsible.

 20 " 'If a man sleeps with his aunt, he has dishonored his uncle. They will be held responsible; they will die childless.

 21 " 'If a man marries his brother's wife, it is an act of impurity; he has dishonored his brother. They will be childless.

[Seth]

So when God said two men who lie together are to be stoned to death what happened to them?  Were they stoned to death?  Or were they spiritually stoned? 

No they were not spiritually stoned. Please take into account what I said: Carnal people, who understand carnal things will carnally fulfill the words. As it happens, that was all they could do because carnal minds were all they had at their disposal.

When spiritual understanding comes, one begins to realize that the adulterer, and the murderer is not "out there" but in you and me. That's the one who needs stoning and the blood of the Sword (word of God). Yet the carnal man looks outward first, not inward first, and that is why instead of putting the adulterer to death in themselves, they were looking for other people to kill...

However, do not assume that just because it was ordered by God, that it was fulfilled as commanded..at least not very often. As Peter said, the Law was very hard to bear. Alot of folks simply didn't do as commanded because it was too much to bear. You didn't see alot of Pharisees stoning people in Jesus time, because it would have been a slaughterfest. If Jesus wasn't there, do you think the Pharisees would have pulled the adulteress out and stoned her? Maybe, but I think not. They would have to stone much of the population....then they wouldn't be so revered.

[Gab]

Just curious, Seth - how do you reconcile the idea that those commands are spiritual in nature with the fact that elsewhere in Leviticus, such as Leviticus 22:14, there are commands where the punishment for failing to keep them is clearly not spiritual in nature?  What is the tip-off that can let someone know that the "put to death" passages are not also supposed to be taken literally?

[Seth]

Just curious, Seth - how do you reconcile the idea that those commands are spiritual in nature with the fact that elsewhere in Leviticus, such as Leviticus 22:14, there are commands where the punishment for failing to keep them is clearly not spiritual in nature?  What is the tip-off that can let someone know that the "put to death" passages are not also supposed to be taken literally?

Well, I didn't say that God did not mean for them take them to take an outward fulfillment; they were not given eyes to see that the Law testified about Christ. To say that God did not mean for them to carnally fulfill the Law would be to say that God didn't have a clue as to their given natures. But IF they had eyes to see, they would have fulfilled the Law in an inward fashion. Until then, the Law was in an outward fashion.

All this I believe to be the architecture of God. I don't want to make myself misunderstood by saying that God never "intended" for them to fulfill the Law outwardly, only that they were not meant to understand the true MEANING behind the words.

[Seth]

Somethings one can view something as spiritual, other times, one cannot.

Romans 7
14We know that the law is spiritual

You see, it doesn't say "We know that SOME of the Law is spiritual" it says "The law is spiritual." The question is, how much of the Spirit can we see in the law? I may not understand every shadow in the Law, but I know that EVERY part of it is Spiritual, and that spiritual discernment is needed to know that the Law is to be fulfilled by Christ, ALL of it, and that fulfillment occurs within us.

[Beloved Servant]

Amen.
The law was put in the arc and the Mercy Seat (CHRIST) above it.

Blessed Rebecca.

[peacemaker]

Quarries are full of stones, but the culminating point is that of their own guilt and shame, which is upon them.  And the measure at the lower end is expressed in terms of being dead. Thus, the people wanted to stone the woman for adultery, forgetting that it takes two?

"Who will cast the fist stone; a precious stone of forgiveness, or that of lapidating?"

[fullarmor2]

One reason,  I think God has operated in ways like that, is because it makes it harder for people to believe in God and the Word in general. It makes it impossible for many people accually,  for a while only. As God intended.    God is into keeping himself hidden from the World.  He reveals himself only to those who he foreordained  . And those God has foreordained,  are gifted to be able to believe in God,  NO MATTER WHAT. They will still have struggles sometimes.  But they will always overcome, by the power of the Spirit, through faith, working by love.    Scriptures like what you mentioned may bother temporarily,  but the Spirit will empower  believers to TRUST God instead!  After all,  God is love AND omnipotent. God knows the end from the beginning.  So,  ANY person who EVER went through any horrible, evil, painful experience,   it was preplanned by an omnipotent God of love!  That means that God  prepared and enabled ALL those people to endure and go through all the very difficult experiences.  Those experiences look worse to our limited minds which see only through a glass darkly.   But make no mistake,  God had, has, and always will have,   EVERYTHING in control!  
  

[peacemaker]

God is into keeping himself hidden from the World.  

There are two kinds of people:

One to whom belief is more precious than truth, and
the other to whom truth is more precious than belief.

"Truth doesn't hide itself, it contains nothing false."

[Seth]

One reason,  I think God has operated in ways like that, is because it makes it harder for people to believe in God and the Word in general. It makes it impossible for many people accually,  for a while only. As God intended.    God is into keeping himself hidden from the World.  He reveals himself only to those who he foreordained  . And those God has foreordained,  are gifted to be able to believe in God,  NO MATTER WHAT. They will still have struggles sometimes.  But they will always overcome, by the power of the Spirit, through faith, working by love.    Scriptures like what you mentioned may bother temporarily,  but the Spirit will empower  believers to TRUST God instead!  After all,  God is love AND omnipotent. God knows the end from the beginning.  So,  ANY person who EVER went through any horrible, evil, painful experience,   it was preplanned by an omnipotent God of love!  That means that God  prepared and enabled ALL those people to endure and go through all the very difficult experiences.  Those experiences look worse to our limited minds which see only through a glass darkly.   But make no mistake,  God had, has, and always will have,   EVERYTHING in control!  
  

Wondeful post. Amen! 

[Gab]

Just curious, Seth - how do you reconcile the idea that those commands are spiritual in nature with the fact that elsewhere in Leviticus, such as Leviticus 22:14, there are commands where the punishment for failing to keep them is clearly not spiritual in nature?  What is the tip-off that can let someone know that the "put to death" passages are not also supposed to be taken literally?

Well, I didn't say that God did not mean for them take them to take an outward fulfillment; they were not given eyes to see that the Law testified about Christ. To say that God did not mean for them to carnally fulfill the Law would be to say that God didn't have a clue as to their given natures. But IF they had eyes to see, they would have fulfilled the Law in an inward fashion. Until then, the Law was in an outward fashion.

All this I believe to be the architecture of God. I don't want to make myself misunderstood by saying that God never "intended" for them to fulfill the Law outwardly, only that they were not meant to understand the true MEANING behind the words.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.  You say that God did intend them to carnally fulfill their the Law, but then you say that they were really supposed to fulfill it in an inward fashion had they, in essence, known better.  Is it in some sense both, or what?  Why would he give them a command knowing that they would fulfill it in one way if he really ultimately wanted them to fulfill it in another way?

What is the evidence that this second hidden way of reading the text was intended to be conveyed?

[Seth]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.  You say that God did intend them to carnally fulfill their the Law, but then you say that they were really supposed to fulfill it in an inward fashion had they, in essence, known better.

 

Did I really say that they were supposed to fulfill it in any other way than they did? I only said that carnal people will carnally fulfill God's words. As it is, they couldn't be anything other than carnal.

Why would he give them a command knowing that they would fulfill it in one way if he really ultimately wanted them to fulfill it in another way?

I think for the same reason He does anything knowing what the end result will be, because it fits into His plan.

What is the evidence that this second hidden way of reading the text was intended to be conveyed?

None, because the mystery of Christ was not to be revealed until much later. Remember, I wasn't saying that God intended for them to do anything other than what they did. My explanation in response to JHAKH is that the meaning of the two quotes scriptures were fulfilled in a carnal way, but that there is a much higher way for them to be fulfilled which has nothing to do with killing anyone other than the man of sin within them.

Eyes to see Christ in the Law simply were not given to them.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

So when God said two men who lie together are to be stoned to death what happened to them?  Were they stoned to death?  Or were they spiritually stoned? 

No they were not spiritually stoned. Please take into account what I said: Carnal people, who understand carnal things will carnally fulfill the words. As it happens, that was all they could do because carnal minds were all they had at their disposal.

When spiritual understanding comes, one begins to realize that the adulterer, and the murderer is not "out there" but in you and me. That's the one who needs stoning and the blood of the Sword (word of God). Yet the carnal man looks outward first, not inward first, and that is why instead of putting the adulterer to death in themselves, they were looking for other people to kill...

However, do not assume that just because it was ordered by God, that it was fulfilled as commanded..at least not very often. As Peter said, the Law was very hard to bear. Alot of folks simply didn't do as commanded because it was too much to bear. You didn't see alot of Pharisees stoning people in Jesus time, because it would have been a slaughterfest. If Jesus wasn't there, do you think the Pharisees would have pulled the adulteress out and stoned her? Maybe, but I think not. They would have to stone much of the population....then they wouldn't be so revered.

Interesting Seth.
I still wouldnt stone myself for working a Sabbath though, or for cursing my parents,  i find the OT rules pretty bizarre whichever way i look at them.
But great post, thank you.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Somethings one can view something as spiritual, other times, one cannot.

Romans 7
14We know that the law is spiritual

You see, it doesn't say "We know that SOME of the Law is spiritual" it says "The law is spiritual." The question is, how much of the Spirit can we see in the law? I may not understand every shadow in the Law, but I know that EVERY part of it is Spiritual, and that spiritual discernment is needed to know that the Law is to be fulfilled by Christ, ALL of it, and that fulfillment occurs within us.

Hmmm very interesting Seth. 

[jesushandsarekindhands]

One reason,  I think God has operated in ways like that, is because it makes it harder for people to believe in God and the Word in general. It makes it impossible for many people accually,  for a while only. As God intended.    God is into keeping himself hidden from the World.  He reveals himself only to those who he foreordained  . And those God has foreordained,  are gifted to be able to believe in God,  NO MATTER WHAT. They will still have struggles sometimes.  But they will always overcome, by the power of the Spirit, through faith, working by love.    Scriptures like what you mentioned may bother temporarily,  but the Spirit will empower  believers to TRUST God instead!  After all,  God is love AND omnipotent. God knows the end from the beginning.  So,  ANY person who EVER went through any horrible, evil, painful experience,   it was preplanned by an omnipotent God of love!  That means that God  prepared and enabled ALL those people to endure and go through all the very difficult experiences.  Those experiences look worse to our limited minds which see only through a glass darkly.   But make no mistake,  God had, has, and always will have,   EVERYTHING in control!  
  

Good post, thank you.

[rosered]

Somethings one can view something as spiritual, other times, one cannot.

Romans 7
14We know that the law is spiritual

You see, it doesn't say "We know that SOME of the Law is spiritual" it says "The law is spiritual." The question is, how much of the Spirit can we see in the law? I may not understand every shadow in the Law, but I know that EVERY part of it is Spiritual, and that spiritual discernment is needed to know that the Law is to be fulfilled by Christ, ALL of it, and that fulfillment occurs within us.

Hmmm very interesting Seth. 

  wow , you have no idea what a blesssing it is to  read you guys exchanges!!!      praise the Lord!!! 

   I know that the law required blood ...  Jesus blood / life  is the  perfect 
 but until he come
  the letter of the law kills
  the4 Spirit is life    I see that as the difference
  both moses chosen of God was a bloody husband  because of the circumscision [paul describes this both natural and spiritual of the heart ] 

 and David/beloved  was a bloody man also his son Solomon was given  the "honor" to build the  temple    Solomon  "  son of peace "
 I find lots of
 
 hidden tresures in the hidden name meanings   
 
 seems the natual and spiritual Laws  are two types of witnesses   one of heaven and the other of earth  perhaps
 
 

[jesushandsarekindhands]

I feel so 'unspiritual' now lol.