A curse on him who keeps his sword from bloodshed." [Jer. 13:14; 48:10]

[natcat86]

I have struggled with passages where on face value it seems God basically tells people to murder others. Back when I used to try and force mysef to believe in hell (i thought it was in the bible) I had to use the same logic as when I forced myself to accept god wanted his armies to kill women and children.

These days I just trust God that it must have been for a blummin good reason and unlike with the hell thang it would have only been a temporary suffering and then they would be asleep in the grave. And one day they will be in heaven and they can ask Him why themselves.

 I think that maybe we cant fuly appreciate just how terrible sin is and how awful its consequences are for us in reality. Maybe God was being merciful, I dunno. I do know however that if God had not set out in books like Leviticus just how holy He is and what the price of sin is then I personally would never be able to appreciate just what a cost Christ paid on the cross. When we are in heaven it will all become clear and we'll be like, ooooooooh  ping!

My  for what its worth 

[Seth]

So when God said two men who lie together are to be stoned to death what happened to them?  Were they stoned to death?  Or were they spiritually stoned? 

No they were not spiritually stoned. Please take into account what I said: Carnal people, who understand carnal things will carnally fulfill the words. As it happens, that was all they could do because carnal minds were all they had at their disposal.

When spiritual understanding comes, one begins to realize that the adulterer, and the murderer is not "out there" but in you and me. That's the one who needs stoning and the blood of the Sword (word of God). Yet the carnal man looks outward first, not inward first, and that is why instead of putting the adulterer to death in themselves, they were looking for other people to kill...

However, do not assume that just because it was ordered by God, that it was fulfilled as commanded..at least not very often. As Peter said, the Law was very hard to bear. Alot of folks simply didn't do as commanded because it was too much to bear. You didn't see alot of Pharisees stoning people in Jesus time, because it would have been a slaughterfest. If Jesus wasn't there, do you think the Pharisees would have pulled the adulteress out and stoned her? Maybe, but I think not. They would have to stone much of the population....then they wouldn't be so revered.

Interesting Seth.
I still wouldnt stone myself for working a Sabbath though, or for cursing my parents,  i find the OT rules pretty bizarre whichever way i look at them.
But great post, thank you.

Again, though, I don't think you are expected to stone yourself literally.

[Tim B]

Now, I can't say for sure, but on the main post of this thread, I have this to say:

The Bible should brought into context with a specific time. I mean, we wouldn't say that God still curses those who don't partake in bloodshed. (Jesus even promoted the opposite: peace!)

Also... part of me seriously wonders if some of the Old Testament was written by people who claimed to hear from God, but were really trying to control people. I mean, seriously, threatening a curse on anybody that doesn't fight along side a certain army sounds like a threat from man, rather than God.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

So when God said two men who lie together are to be stoned to death what happened to them?  Were they stoned to death?  Or were they spiritually stoned? 

No they were not spiritually stoned. Please take into account what I said: Carnal people, who understand carnal things will carnally fulfill the words. As it happens, that was all they could do because carnal minds were all they had at their disposal.

When spiritual understanding comes, one begins to realize that the adulterer, and the murderer is not "out there" but in you and me. That's the one who needs stoning and the blood of the Sword (word of God). Yet the carnal man looks outward first, not inward first, and that is why instead of putting the adulterer to death in themselves, they were looking for other people to kill...

However, do not assume that just because it was ordered by God, that it was fulfilled as commanded..at least not very often. As Peter said, the Law was very hard to bear. Alot of folks simply didn't do as commanded because it was too much to bear. You didn't see alot of Pharisees stoning people in Jesus time, because it would have been a slaughterfest. If Jesus wasn't there, do you think the Pharisees would have pulled the adulteress out and stoned her? Maybe, but I think not. They would have to stone much of the population....then they wouldn't be so revered.

Interesting Seth.
I still wouldnt stone myself for working a Sabbath though, or for cursing my parents,  i find the OT rules pretty bizarre whichever way i look at them.
But great post, thank you.

Again, though, I don't think you are expected to stone yourself literally.

Thanks Seth, great posts.  

[Nancy]

hi there,

Tim B I agree with you totally.  Those words come from man not God.  All religions are about controlling people not allowing them freedom.  Exactly like Leviticus. God/truth doesn't change.  I don't believe that Jesus came to say that God had changed but He came to say that the Jewish people as they were taught were wrong about what Gods' character was like. That's why He was considered dangerous because He upturned the priests views of what God is really like and if believed the people would not need the priests anymore.

Godbless
Nancy

[jesushandsarekindhands]

hi there,

Tim B I agree with you totally.  Those words come from man not God.  All religions are about controlling people not allowing them freedom.  Exactly like Leviticus. God/truth doesn't change.  I don't believe that Jesus came to say that God had changed but He came to say that the Jewish people as they were taught were wrong about what Gods' character was like. That's why He was considered dangerous because He upturned the priests views of what God is really like and if believed the people would not need the priests anymore.

Godbless
Nancy

2 Timothy 3:16
 
  All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.
 
So, i am on sides with Seth in many ways, the bible clearly says it is God breathed.  Jesus constantly quotes from the OT.
So although it would be easy to say -
"Oh it must be man that wrote that part because i dont like it and I SAID SO!", its not that simple.  ALL scripture is GOD BREATHED, even the parts we might not like.

So, we have to find a way to interperate them and like Seth says we are too look at it spiritually.

If we as a people are not even going to accept what our own 'GOOD BOOK' says, then we may as well just pack it all in and make a big fat IDOL for ourselves to worship instead, because Nancy, that is what you seem to have done.

If i did that, i wouldnt call myself a Christian, personally and certainly wouldnt hang around a Christian forum or website...it would be pointless, and i wouldnt want to corrupt other peoples views with my MAN MADE Beliefs.

[Cardinal]

  Just a revelation given me about the man that was stoned on the Sabbath day for picking up sticks.......

Sticks = wood/carnal nature

Stones = word/scriptures that have NOT been "struck" as the Rock was, to release
              the life/revelation of the Spirit within

Sabbath day = rest of the Spirit

And so to us those that walk in the new spiritual covenant, the message is....

That men will be adding to their carnal nature (sticks) on the Sabbath day/7th day, but we are to "stone them to death with stones", ie.  kill the carnal flesh nature with scriptures that HAVE BEEN  "struck" to bring forth the life of the Spirit to them.

This is how God's judgments are unto victory; it's a two edged sword. The letter killeth but the Spirit giveth life. Blessings....

[Nancy]

JHAKH,
Who says it is OUR Good Book. From a very young age, priests, clergyman, parents, society have told us that it is OUR good book.  Do you ever stop to think that if you were born in a Muslim country the Koran would be YOUR good book, or if you were born in India, etc you know what i'm getting at.  Do you have to call yourself a christian or anything else?  For years i used to be hung up on what i called myself (and still do to a certain degree)  I was bought up a catholic but didn't believe that they held the truth so i un-catholicised myself!!  But i swore that i would never enter a protestant church!!!! Guess what!!!
We are constantly told to be a good christian you have to do xyz.  But do you?
I do not knowingly wish to corrupt anybodys' firmly held beliefs, just telling you mine. The truth doesn't hide, you cannot corrupt the truth with untruths. The truth always shows itself.
We all have to find the truth in our own ways JHAKH but surely we can discuss them openly and maturely.

Godbless
Nancy

[jesushandsarekindhands]

JHAKH,
Who says it is OUR Good Book. From a very young age, priests, clergyman, parents, society have told us that it is OUR good book.  Do you ever stop to think that if you were born in a Muslim country the Koran would be YOUR good book, or if you were born in India, etc you know what i'm getting at.  Do you have to call yourself a christian or anything else?  For years i used to be hung up on what i called myself (and still do to a certain degree)  I was bought up a catholic but didn't believe that they held the truth so i un-catholicised myself!!  But i swore that i would never enter a protestant church!!!! Guess what!!!
We are constantly told to be a good christian you have to do xyz.  But do you?
I do not knowingly wish to corrupt anybodys' firmly held beliefs, just telling you mine. The truth doesn't hide, you cannot corrupt the truth with untruths. The truth always shows itself.
We all have to find the truth in our own ways JHAKH but surely we can discuss them openly and maturely.

Godbless
Nancy

Nancy, you said -
"Those words come from man not God.  All religions are about controlling people not allowing them freedom."

Now the Scriptures (Paul) says ALL scripture is GOD BREATHED...Your saying they are not, (because you don't like the parts in the OT where God orders people to kill people). 
That is idolitory, your making a God to suit yourself!  The bible says it is God breathed!  Im not the one making false statements here!

It would be very easy to pick and chose what parts of the Bible we believe and what parts we dont...Hell i could just ignore the whole book aside from the part where God says "Stone people for working the Sabbath", and every Sunday i could get the bag of stones out and start pelting people from my window!

What im saying is that either the Bible is Gods word or it isnt, its not for us to pick and chose parts, but to try to understand it better.

That was all i was saying, i really mean no harm by all this and understand where you are coming from, i just hope you 'get' what im saying to you here because we cant play tit for tat with the word of God, who are we to change it or say that we are right and St Paul wasnt?

[Seth]

Somethings one can view something as spiritual, other times, one cannot.

Romans 7
14We know that the law is spiritual

You see, it doesn't say "We know that SOME of the Law is spiritual" it says "The law is spiritual." The question is, how much of the Spirit can we see in the law? I may not understand every shadow in the Law, but I know that EVERY part of it is Spiritual, and that spiritual discernment is needed to know that the Law is to be fulfilled by Christ, ALL of it, and that fulfillment occurs within us.

Hmmm very interesting Seth. 

  wow , you have no idea what a blesssing it is to  read you guys exchanges!!!      praise the Lord!!! 

   I know that the law required blood ...  Jesus blood / life  is the  perfect 
 but until he come
  the letter of the law kills
  the4 Spirit is life    I see that as the difference
  both moses chosen of God was a bloody husband  because of the circumscision [paul describes this both natural and spiritual of the heart ] 

 and David/beloved  was a bloody man also his son Solomon was given  the "honor" to build the  temple    Solomon  "  son of peace "
 I find lots of
 
 hidden tresures in the hidden name meanings   
 
 seems the natual and spiritual Laws  are two types of witnesses   one of heaven and the other of earth  perhaps
 
 

Good stuff Rose,

I have been pondering this: Jesus Christ in the flesh was much like the Letter of the Law. When I realized that not even Peter was converted while Christ was in his earth ministry I started to see the similarities. Christ in the flesh healed people.....externally. Christ in the Spirit heals people....internally.

The Law was the externalized expression of God's righteousness....to the carnal mind which "cannot recieve the things of the Spirit, neither can he know them."

When Christ was resurrected, the Law, rather than being an enumerated lists of commandments by the letter, became one: namely, bear eachother's burdens. Basically, Love became ONE in him, rather than split apart into many different commandments.

But while Love is veiled in the flesh (Christ's flesh was a veil according to the scripture) the carnal mind sees outwardly. Jesus commanded them to drink his blood. That is a command. The carnal man could obey the command by killing an innocent man (Christ) and drinking his blood. Or, the Spiritual man can do the opposite, knowing that the blood, water and spirit testify of Christ. The carnal man would be trying to obey Christ and thinking that he was successfully doing so, but he never heard Christ's voice because Christ's words are Spirit and life.

What I see regarding the hard commandments in the Law, is God speaking over their heads. He was talking about the Messiah and they didn't even know that, which is why they obeyed the Law carnally. Why are we not to be judged for not observing the Sabbath as a day of the week? Because those things are the shadow and Christ is the body casting the shadow.

Same thing goes for stoning the adulterer. WHO IS THE ADULTERER? That is the question. The carnal man thinks the adulterer is this girl over here, or that guy over there. To the carnal man, the adulterer is never within himself. That's too hard to accept.

But, once spiritual discernment comes and the spiritual Law finally becomes known as an expression of Christ, we then can realize that God does want us to still stone the adulterer, ourselves. That is how (per Romans 6) that our old man dies and we can walk in newness of life, having no need to literally stone anyone else, because those things are a shadow cast by the body which is Christ.

Now, while I believe God knew their minds would understand carnally, and therefore his Law became a ministration of death, He has all authority in Heaven over earth to say "You may have thought you were obedient, but you had never heard my voice."

Paul said that as a Pharisee, concerning the Law he was nearly a perfect observer. And He also called himself the "chief sinner." How can a nearly perfect observer of the Law be simultaneously chief sinner? Because while he saw the letter, He hadn't heard the voice. He saw the words but did not hear the music, to quote Mark Twain.

Because someone hears a sentence, does not mean they understand the meaning of that sentence. And when a carnal man obeys the Law of Moses, he may think he is obeying, but because he is carnal, Moses, who he trusted is continually his accuser.

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Somethings one can view something as spiritual, other times, one cannot.

Romans 7
14We know that the law is spiritual

You see, it doesn't say "We know that SOME of the Law is spiritual" it says "The law is spiritual." The question is, how much of the Spirit can we see in the law? I may not understand every shadow in the Law, but I know that EVERY part of it is Spiritual, and that spiritual discernment is needed to know that the Law is to be fulfilled by Christ, ALL of it, and that fulfillment occurs within us.

Hmmm very interesting Seth. 

  wow , you have no idea what a blesssing it is to  read you guys exchanges!!!      praise the Lord!!! 

   I know that the law required blood ...  Jesus blood / life  is the  perfect 
 but until he come
  the letter of the law kills
  the4 Spirit is life    I see that as the difference
  both moses chosen of God was a bloody husband  because of the circumscision [paul describes this both natural and spiritual of the heart ] 

 and David/beloved  was a bloody man also his son Solomon was given  the "honor" to build the  temple    Solomon  "  son of peace "
 I find lots of
 
 hidden tresures in the hidden name meanings   
 
 seems the natual and spiritual Laws  are two types of witnesses   one of heaven and the other of earth  perhaps
 
 

Good stuff Rose,

I have been pondering this: Jesus Christ in the flesh was much like the Letter of the Law. When I realized that not even Peter was converted while Christ was in his earth ministry I started to see the similarities. Christ in the flesh healed people.....externally. Christ in the Spirit heals people....internally.

The Law was the externalized expression of God's righteousness....to the carnal mind which "cannot recieve the things of the Spirit, neither can he know them."

When Christ was resurrected, the Law, rather than being an enumerated lists of commandments by the letter, became one: namely, bear eachother's burdens. Basically, Love became ONE in him, rather than split apart into many different commandments.

But while Love is veiled in the flesh (Christ's flesh was a veil according to the scripture) the carnal mind sees outwardly. Jesus commanded them to drink his blood. That is a command. The carnal man could obey the command by killing an innocent man (Christ) and drinking his blood. Or, the Spiritual man can do the opposite, knowing that the blood, water and spirit testify of Christ. The carnal man would be trying to obey Christ and thinking that he was successfully doing so, but he never heard Christ's voice because Christ's words are Spirit and life.

What I see regarding the hard commandments in the Law, is God speaking over their heads. He was talking about the Messiah and they didn't even know that, which is why they obeyed the Law carnally. Why are we not to be judged for not observing the Sabbath as a day of the week? Because those things are the shadow and Christ is the body casting the shadow.

Same thing goes for stoning the adulterer. WHO IS THE ADULTERER? That is the question. The carnal man thinks the adulterer is this girl over here, or that guy over there. To the carnal man, the adulterer is never within himself. That's too hard to accept.

But, once spiritual discernment comes and the spiritual Law finally becomes known as an expression of Christ, we then can realize that God does want us to still stone the adulterer, ourselves. That is how (per Romans 6) that our old man dies and we can walk in newness of life, having no need to literally stone anyone else, because those things are a shadow cast by the body which is Christ.

Now, while I believe God knew their minds would understand carnally, and therefore his Law became a ministration of death, He has all authority in Heaven over earth to say "You may have thought you were obedient, but you had never heard my voice."

Paul said that as a Pharisee, concerning the Law he was nearly a perfect observer. And He also called himself the "chief sinner." How can a nearly perfect observer of the Law be simultaneously chief sinner? Because while he saw the letter, He hadn't heard the voice. He saw the words but did not hear the music, to quote Mark Twain.

Because someone hears a sentence, does not mean they understand the meaning of that sentence. And when a carnal man obeys the Law of Moses, he may think he is obeying, but because he is carnal, Moses, who he trusted is continually his accuser.

Seth out of curiosity, what would you make of God saying "Stone homosexuals"  (man sleeping with a man as one would a woman)?

What does that mean 'spiritually' to you?

Does it mean the same as the other passages?  That we are too look within ourselves first to see if we have done such things or had such longings?

I only ask because im gay and God really didnt seem to bothered about it, in fact i had a little revelation that he was cool with it as long as i didnt go sleeping around and was sincerly looking for love. 

[Cardinal]

  Good post Seth  Blessings....

[rosered]

I have been pondering this: Jesus Christ in the flesh was much like the Letter of the Law. When I realized that not even Peter was converted while Christ was in his earth ministry I started to see the similarities. Christ in the flesh healed people.....externally. Christ in the Spirit heals people....internally.

The Law was the externalized expression of God's righteousness....to the carnal mind which "cannot recieve the things of the Spirit, neither can he know them."

When Christ was resurrected, the Law, rather than being an enumerated lists of commandments by the letter, became one: namely, bear eachother's burdens. Basically, Love became ONE in him, rather than split apart into many different commandments.

But while Love is veiled in the flesh (Christ's flesh was a veil according to the scripture) the carnal mind sees outwardly.

What I see regarding the hard commandments in the Law, is God speaking over their heads. He was talking about the Messiah and they didn't even know that, which is why they obeyed the Law carnally. Why are we not to be judged for not observing the Sabbath as a day of the week? Because those things are the shadow and Christ is the body casting the shadow.

Same thing goes for stoning the adulterer. WHO IS THE ADULTERER? That is the question. The carnal man thinks the adulterer is this girl over here, or that guy over there. To the carnal man, the adulterer is never within himself. That's too hard to accept.

But, once spiritual discernment comes and the spiritual Law finally becomes known as an expression of Christ, we then can realize that God does want us to still stone the adulterer, ourselves. That is how (per Romans 6) that our old man dies and we can walk in newness of life, having no need to literally stone anyone else, because those things are a shadow cast by the body which is Christ.

Now, while I believe God knew their minds would understand carnally, and therefore his Law became a ministration of death, He has all authority in Heaven over earth to say "You may have thought you were obedient, but you had never heard my voice."

Paul said that as a Pharisee, concerning the Law he was nearly a perfect observer. And He also called himself the "chief sinner." How can a nearly perfect observer of the Law be simultaneously chief sinner? Because while he saw the letter, He hadn't heard the voice. He saw the words but did not hear the music, to quote Mark Twain.

Because someone hears a sentence, does not mean they understand the meaning of that sentence. And when a carnal man obeys the Law of Moses, he may think he is obeying, but because he is carnal, Moses, who he trusted is continually his accuser.

  wow!!    great posting ,  I have noticed  you   believe alot along the same  lines as I do
 
  you just much better express your thoughts  Bro Seth ,
    good thoughts too ..
  I so agree we could   nor cannot see  with spirtual eyes  till the Lord come to  heal us   give us the new eyes , ears to hear and  mainly heart to understand , the start of His earthly ministry        and open show of things in the new covenant .
  I really liked the part  you  brought up about     not being able to see our selves as the adulterer  ,  this is so true   the  stoning / hardened hearts  we cast  at one another  a judgement  and yet we are to see  the law  applied to ourselves  , looking  though the glass darkly.. when we see face to face  we have to remember what  type of man we were
  2Cr 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.    and being known
   Jesus told us  plain judge not unless  you be judged
  it is  the tree of knowledge of good and evil [ a witness for or  against us perhaps ]  Just as the tree of Life is given to those who have entered into  His kingdom
 moses   had a veil over his face  as well ..  make me think  about these things  more in depth .
  here Hbr 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?  

 Hbr 10:30   For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.  


 Hbr 10:31   [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
  I aways wondered about them two witnesses ......
 any ways love how you  described  the inward   work and outward  work
  
 of Gods righteouness  in the Laws  the  servant  verses the son in
 
   the perfect  law of Liberty /free man the book of   James  describes
 
  Love does conquer all  

[Seth]

Seth out of curiosity, what would you make of God saying "Stone homosexuals"  (man sleeping with a man as one would a woman)?

What does that mean 'spiritually' to you?

Does it mean the same as the other passages?  That we are too look within ourselves first to see if we have done such things or had such longings?

Well, I say honestly, that I do not know every shadow. But I just know that they ARE shadows, and that the Law is not carnal but Spiritual. That is a foundation of verifiable scriptural truth that I build on. So regarding stoning of homosexuals. I actually see that carnal sins have spiritual counterparts. So when God told his prophet to marry a prostitute, it was expressly symbolic of the fact that His people were committing spiritual fornication. When we have an idol before God (money, power etc) we are adulterers. Just as marriage in the physical realm is symbolic of the union of Christ and his people by the Spirit (becoming one), adultery is to put an idol between the two.

As for homosexuality. I don't know. I could theorize to say that it speaks about fornication with "another Jesus" and "another Gospel" or worshipping not the true God but whatever God suits ourselves etc. But I do know that the commandment is spiritual, and that through deliverance from sin through grace, I am freed from the necessity to commit violence on another person.

I only ask because im gay and God really didnt seem to bothered about it, in fact i had a little revelation that he was cool with it as long as i didnt go sleeping around and was sincerly looking for love. 

Well, that is a whole can of worms. Where did your revelation come from?

[jesushandsarekindhands]

Seth out of curiosity, what would you make of God saying "Stone homosexuals"  (man sleeping with a man as one would a woman)?

What does that mean 'spiritually' to you?

Does it mean the same as the other passages?  That we are too look within ourselves first to see if we have done such things or had such longings?

Well, I say honestly, that I do not know every shadow. But I just know that they ARE shadows, and that the Law is not carnal but Spiritual. That is a foundation of verifiable scriptural truth that I build on. So regarding stoning of homosexuals. I actually see that carnal sins have spiritual counterparts. So when God told his prophet to marry a prostitute, it was expressly symbolic of the fact that His people were committing spiritual fornication. When we have an idol before God (money, power etc) we are adulterers. Just as marriage in the physical realm is symbolic of the union of Christ and his people by the Spirit (becoming one), adultery is to put an idol between the two.

As for homosexuality. I don't know. I could theorize to say that it speaks about fornication with "another Jesus" and "another Gospel" or worshipping not the true God but whatever God suits ourselves etc. But I do know that the commandment is spiritual, and that through deliverance from sin through grace, I am freed from the necessity to commit violence on another person.

I only ask because im gay and God really didnt seem to bothered about it, in fact i had a little revelation that he was cool with it as long as i didnt go sleeping around and was sincerly looking for love. 

Well, that is a whole can of worms. Where did your revelation come from?

I posted it a while ago on the welcome board when i first joined Seth, if you are interested you could dig it up.  Basically i asked God if he would kill me if he wasnt happy with me being gay, but he didnt.  I found it pretty hard going accepting who i was.
One night i prayed, telling God i couldnt change and that i was stuck with being the way i was and God did a little miracle.
He must have a sense of humour because he made a song on the radio play twice in a row, (a famous gay song) and also it was the first song that woke me up the next day on the radio.