If hell is a mistranslation of Sheol and Gehenna...

[WhiteWings]

I really want to believe there is no hell.

Depends on what you think hell is. The meaning of the words has changed very much over time.
Did you find the list with verses like God is fire? Everyone shall be salted with fire . And similar verses.
It may giv eyou just that little extra proof hell is not what you might think it is.
If you like a loooot of reading I can point you to some articles.

[Seth]

And Seth did your father kick out his heretic UR son? 

My dad? No, I was already well far into living on my own, but he was upset at first.

[WhiteWings]

I feared hell, but my sin overruled my fear.

Just a yes or no will do. (or simply ignore) Did you plan for suicide because of hell teaching?

Speaking in general now. I don't think that believers that commit suicide have  a stronger sinful nature as a fearful nature. A person can take only that much and then something snaps. Reasoning is missing. Even if they feel their reasoning is still sharp. So I wonder is hell existed and people commit suicide that God would held the accountable for that act. Some people have terrible lifes. Then I can understand they take a handful of pills and slip into an eternal sleep and leave the horrors behind...

[WhiteWings]

And Seth did your father kick out his heretic UR son? 

My dad? No, I was already well far into living on my own, but he was upset at first.

Is he fully ET or does he admit his study showed him URish hints....?

[Seth]

I feared hell, but my sin overruled my fear.

Just a yes or no will do. (or simply ignore) Did you plan for suicide because of hell teaching?

Not directly but it factored in on a deeper level. Sorry that wasn't yes or no, but it was the best answer I could give.

Speaking in general now. I don't think that believers that commit suicide have  a stronger sinful nature as a fearful nature. A person can take only that much and then something snaps. Reasoning is missing. Even if they feel their reasoning is still sharp. So I wonder is hell existed and people commit suicide that God would held the accountable for that act. Some people have terrible lifes. Then I can understand they take a handful of pills and slip into an eternal sleep and leave the horrors behind...

I'm not sure that I would say "stronger sinful nature" but I do think that some people are more susceptible to different things. However, if I knew hell didn't exist, knowing myself, I probably would not have gotten to that level. Knowing the truth really did set me free to build on a solid foundation. The false belief in hell made my foundation shaky.

Fear causes addiction to sinful things, because those sinful things comfort the flesh.

[Seth]

And Seth did your father kick out his heretic UR son? 

My dad? No, I was already well far into living on my own, but he was upset at first.

Is he fully ET or does he admit his study showed him URish hints....?

He is fully ET, and we don't talk about it because he asked me not to bring it up or send him info anymore. So that's that with that.

[sven]

My question is this:  If this mistranslation makes so much sense, then why are educated pastors, ministers, etc. not learning this in college and then passing this information on to their congregation?  Why hasn't it created a revolution in theology?  Are they ignoring this information?  Saying its a lie?

I try to answer it a bit, I can give no quarantee that what I say is right.

The KJV translators translated sheol both with grave and hell, so either they did this willfully or they understood "hell" meaning just the grave, or different translators have been the reason. If translators twisted the bible willfully back then (which I think they did), we can assume people do this still today.

I'm German, and I'm convinced the revised Luther bibles have been willfully twisted, Luther translated sheol almost in all occurrences with hell which is not wrong at all, yet in the 1912 version, they rendered sheol commonly grave and only when referring to bad people as Korah e.g. with hell, very similar like the KJV, the 1984 version has abandoned hell in the OT.

Many other modern bibles have abandoned hell at least in the Old Testament, but they insist gehenna means hell. This is something one can dispute.

Some of the apocrypha support this translation, so from a scholarly point of view, it is a possible translation.

Concerning aion and aionios, most scholars are of the opinion that Plato understood aion as eternity, so they use Plato as authority to translate these words with eternity, everlasting, etc.

I do not know of any learned German scholar who teaches eternal torment, however most scholars teach what they themselfes have been taught, many cult-ike evangelical denominations teach hell, they are just like catholics, following their tradition.

Most dictionaries give eternity as a possible translation for aion, so you can't accuse anybody if he follows this definition, it is however a Platonist and not a biblical definition, and even Platos idea of eternity does not neccessarily mean endlessness.

I consider aion and aionios of more relevance on the subject of universalism than the term hell, even according to the KJV hell is not neccessarily eternal (e.g Jonah 2).

Some people seem to have a interest to hold the doctrine of eternal torment alive, others appear to honestly think it is scriptural, using history as authority, they claim words like sheol, gehenna, have changed their meanings over the intertestamental period and were used by Christ in the sense they have commonly now.

Especially the idea of eternity is hard to remove from the believers mind.

[WhiteWings]

I'm German, and I'm convinced the revised Luther bibles have been willfully twisted,

Just like the translator in WillieH signature. Burned him as a heretic, changed a few 'offending' words and used his work.

Concerning aion and aionios, most scholars are of the opinion that Plato understood aion as eternity, so they use Plato as authority to translate these words with eternity, everlasting, etc.

Read the reply Martin made in Lupac's thread today.

Most dictionaries give eternity as a possible translation for aion, so you can't accuse anybody if he follows this definition, it is however a Platonist and not a biblical definition, and even Platos idea of eternity does not neccessarily mean endlessness.

Dictionaries are not leading but following. They show history not dictate it.
If all Greeks from now on use aion when they mean banana then in a few years the meaning banana is added.
That's why I'm looking for old dictionaries.

[Cardinal]

  That's true, WW. I've seen something disappear out of my original Strong's that I bought 23 years ago. In it, "mansions" as in, in my Father's house are many mansions and I go to prepare you a place for you", mansion, actually had a meaning of "nests" in it, which fits nicely with the understanding that we are being made to be "eagles" that fly above the storms of life, and with the understanding that the Jewish "booths" from the feast of Tabernacles are in essence, a big upside-down NEST.

But in later editions, which I also own, that word is omitted as a meaning, no doubt to help support the erroneous doctrine of the "rapture", in which we're "flying away" instead of Him building us a "nest" for Him to gather us up in His "wings" and cover us as His nature of El Shaddai, in. Blessings....

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Gab --

Well, there are a number of reasons, really.

The first is historical.  To understand just how entrenched the doctrine of eternal punishment is, one has to recognize two facts: first, that the first mention of eternal punishment in a version of the Bible came over 1,600 years ago; and second, that the Latin Vulgate (which contained this mistranslation) was the only version of the Bible that people were to use for over a millennium.  They quite literally had no other text to use, and may have not even been aware that the Vulgate was a translation, not the original.  So strong was the conviction that people must use the Vulgate that people were literally burned at the stake for the crime of intending to bring the Bible to people's native languages.  So one must keep in mind that for a thousand years people had a book that said in plain view "eternal torment" and had no resources whatsoever that would have helped them.  If the traditions of the Pharisees was strong enough to cause them to nullify the word of God, what do you think a thousand years of the tradition of eternal torment will do?

The second is pragmatic.  Consider what happened when Carlton Pearson began preaching the truth.  When he was a fundamentalist hellfire-and-brimstone preacher, he raked in the dough and had attendance numbering in the thousands.  When he then instead told the people, "No, my God loves you," he was branded a heretic, lost almost all his congregation, and just about went bankrupt.  Telling people that they all are going to go to hell unless they listen to you is a rather good way to make money.  Telling people the truth is not.

The third is psychological.  How many times have you heard someone say something along the lines of, "If universalism is true, then it doesn't even matter if I believe!" or "Why don't you believe in eternal torment, just to be sure?"  Anyone who lives in fear will think fearful thoughts and will allow that fear to run their lives.  A thousand years of pervasive fear in Christian thought cannot help but seep into the minds of humans.  As a result, many of them quite simply do not trust God enough to entrust their eternal fate into his hands - rather, they feel as though they must do whatever they possibly can to hedge their bets and stay far away from whatever hell might exist.  They will preach endlessly that we must trust God, not men, yet they do not even realize how utterly distrustful their actions are.

There are probably others that I'm missing, but you get the idea.  The fact of the matter is that eternal torment has become deeply, deeply ingrained into the very psyche of Christianity itself, and it is unreasonable for us to expect that to change overnight.  Bit by bit, people will come around the more resources we have available through which to bring people to the truth, but it is very slow going to reverse over a millennium and a half of damage.

   Great post Gab!  The only one you left out is the one Jab mentioned a few posts earlier, which [IMHO] is the MOST pivotal one -- that is that those who are VEILED are simply -- UNREVEALED. 

Remember also that FEW shall enter into the Kingdom of God (which is assumed by the MANY to mean -- gain SALVATION)...

If one reviews the WORD... it is always FEW who "listen" and  that come to KNOW TRUTH... the nation of ISRAEL was ALWAYS being spanked for its various wanderings and UNBELIEF... And when CHRIST came... they would not accept His teachings because they were not ORDAINED to...

No MAN "chooses" to KNOW the TRUTH... it becomes KNOWN only to those whom GOD has chosen shall KNOW it...

In the end, we are on GOD's agenda... He is not on OURS... And in THIS, does religion fail...  For EVERYONE who is in BONDAGE to RELIGION... has placed God into his/her own little BOX... and as they convey their varying and confused versions... The "god" they are conveying is mostly THEMSELVES... (ALWAYS including THEMSELVES in the portion which is SAVED, yet armed with the CONFUSION of CONDEMNATION of others -- which WAS NOT EXAMPLED by CHRIST)

Instead of the GOD which inspires such writing that says:  He "so LOVED the WORLD" or that "He is the SAVIOR of ALL MEN, especially those that BELIEVE" or "behold the Lamb of God which TAKETH AWAY the sin of the WORLD".... or one of my personal favorite passages, ...which happens to be the ONLY MENTION of GEHENNA outside of the Gospel accounts of CHRIST

And only using the word once -- in describing the "FORK TONGUED" message of Christianity:

[bracket comments are mine]:

James 3:6 -- 6 --and the TONGUE [which brings a message] is a FIRE, a world of INIQUITY, so is the TONGUE among our members, that it DEFILETH the WHOLE BODY, and -- setteth ON FIRE the course of NATURE [unconverted men in the natural] and is set ON FIRE of GEHENNA 

and moments later, James continues to say:

James 3:8-11 -- 8 -- but the TONGUE can NO MAN tame [only God can do this] -- it is an UNRULY EVIL -- FULL of DEADLY POISON [such as ET]... 9 --  THEREWITH "bless we God" [who does that? = christianty] and THEREWITH "CURSE we MEN" [again who does that? = christianity] -- which are MADE after the similitude of GOD...  10 -- Out of the SAME MOUTH proceedeth BLESSING [worship of God] and CURSING [condemnation of men], my brethren -- THESE THINGS -- OUGHT NOT be SO... 11 -- Doth a FOUNTAIN [of LIVING WATER], SEND FORTH at the SAME PLACE [the TONGUE] -- SWEET water and BITTER?



...willieH 

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Relieved1 -- to Tentmaker!

Hi,
I really want to believe there is no hell.  And I love everything I have read on the Tentmaker site, but there is still one thing that puzzles me about
hell in the King James Version being used loosely when they were translating Sheoul and Gehenna.
My question is this:  If this mistranslation makes so much sense, then why are educated pastors, ministers, etc. not learning this in college and then passing this information on to their congregation?  Why hasn't it created a revolution in theology?  Are they ignoring this information?  Saying its a lie?
I can't understand why they are perpetuating the understanding of hell as a literal fire and brimstone place if it boils down to simple mistranslation.
Does anyone have any insight?
Thank you--I've been thinking maybe because if they took away the threat of hell their coffers might diminish?

As well as the MONEY that they richly lavish in... 

As has been noted... see the "Carlton Pearson" story!  Like SNAKES did they TURN on Him... 

I believe CHRIST noted these (religious ones in His day) as "VIPERS" 

...willieH 

[Cardinal]

  Yes they did Willie, but you know I believe the latter house of Carlton is going to be greater than the former, both spiritually speaking, and in the natural. Wait till they see his 1000 fold harvest on that seed he let fall to the earth and die, Amen? Blessings.....

[WhiteWings]

That's true, WW. I've seen something disappear out of my original Strong's that I bought 23 years ago. In it, "mansions" as in, in my Father's house are many mansions and I go to prepare you a place for you", mansion, actually had a meaning of "nests" in it, which fits nicely with the understanding that we are being made to be "eagles" that fly above the storms of life, and with the understanding that the Jewish "booths" from the feast of Tabernacles are in essence, a big upside-down NEST.

A nest makes me think of a tree (of life).
I search quite a bit for a old dictionary. The problem is that at 1611 (KJV) or before there were far less printed books as now. My hope was on Google books but I found nothing old enough.

[rosered]

 

  wow good to have ya back Bro Willie  !
 
    you guys are  blessing my socks off in this thread
  I  feel the  joy of salvation     just  a moving  sooo freely
 
  whew!!!

 quite  refreshing really ... 

[Taffy]

Hi Bill

hope that healths holding up Bud..good see ya back at board...

[jabcat]

Hi Bill

hope that healths holding up Bud..good see ya back at board...

Amen!

[Cardinal]

  Make that 3 amens! 

[willieH]

willieH: Hi all --

Such a nice and warm welcome! 

I have (when time has allowed), been posting on the Christian Message Board, and they don't like me a lot!   

It is Sooooo nice to come back to home base, and be amongst my  ENLIGHTENED brothers and sisters... 

You guys are just the best!   

I'm really hopin and prayin for the "CMB people", that they will one day see the TRUE GOSPEL... but that is God's call alone...

--- your bro...

...willieH