God forgot to mention Hell...?

[natcat86]

It occured to me yesterday that God doesnt mention hell to Adam as one of the consequences of the fall. Surely if there is such a place it would be the main thing you would mention... 

Nat

[WhiteWings]

Neither does Moses mention hell in any of his 640 laws.
"The wages of sin is death." Not torture.
Just looking at that one verse annihilation comes to mind.

[natcat86]

Neither does Moses mention hell in any of his 640 laws.
"The wages of sin is death." Not torture.
Just looking at that one verse annihilation comes to mind.

Does it mean death now (spiritualy), or when your body dies you remain dead or both?

Nat

[jesushandsarekindhands]

It means both Nat, but Jesus paid for everyones sins.
We can have the 'life' he came to bring here and now, or we can have it when we die, (end/death of sin) either way Jesus will drag us all to him because we were made for God and like a hat is made for the head so we only perfectly 'fit' with God.  One day everyone will realize that sin only brings destruction and ruin and misery and come to revere, respect and love the great God that gave everyone life and turn from their sins, bow knee to God and basically proclaim how great he is and how he was right all along lol.

[sparrow]

It means both Nat, but Jesus paid for everyones sins.
We can have the 'life' he came to bring here and now, or we can have it when we die, (end/death of sin) either way Jesus will drag us all to him because we were made for God and like a hat is made for the head so we only perfectly 'fit' with God.  One day everyone will realize that sin only brings destruction and ruin and misery and come to revere, respect and love the great God that gave everyone life and turn from their sins, bow knee to God and basically proclaim how great he is and how he was right all along lol.

I would say that pretty much is the gist. 

[natcat86]

It means both Nat, but Jesus paid for everyones sins.
We can have the 'life' he came to bring here and now, or we can have it when we die, (end/death of sin) either way Jesus will drag us all to him because we were made for God and like a hat is made for the head so we only perfectly 'fit' with God.  One day everyone will realize that sin only brings destruction and ruin and misery and come to revere, respect and love the great God that gave everyone life and turn from their sins, bow knee to God and basically proclaim how great he is and how he was right all along lol.

Thanks, I can agree with that. One thing though, I think that I do understand why sin is wrong, which makes it all the worse when I do sin, I cant claim ingnorance. What do you think will happen when we die so we will be able to stop sinning. One of the main arguments against UR from my pastor is if God let everyone in it wouldn't be like heaven it would be just like earth, and I think, blummin eck if He let just this church in as it is now it would feel like heaven for about 0.0000000001 seconds! So whatever he does to bring us to life in the next life, does that stop us from sinning. Or must we all go through the lake of fire. 


Nat

[WhiteWings]

Thanks, I can agree with that. One thing though, I think that I do understand why sin is wrong, which makes it all the worse when I do sin, I cant claim ingnorance. What do you think will happen when we die so we will be able to stop sinning. One of the main arguments against UR from my pastor is if God let everyone in it wouldn't be like heaven it would be just like earth,

Even the so called saints/elect/etc... are no free of sin. That would mean heaven possibly turns into another earth after 10 miljon years.
Also look at Paul. A very bad sinner/murderer. Converted into (the best) in a very short moment on teh road to Damascus.
Don't you think God has the power to repeat that (or something similar) for each person that ever lived?

Or must we all go through the lake of fire. 

Yes. Mark 9:49-50  or every one shall be salted with fire .... Salt is good ....

[sparrow]

Hey nat... If you start to see sin as that which is NON-love... and that sin comes from non-love... and GOD IS LOVE... I believe that God's love will burn off that in us which is NON-love. When God fills us... then will we be sinless. Our beings will be infused with love.

We have to go through this contrast first in order to understand what Love is. Otherwise we would just be as ignorant as Adam and Eve. Ignorance isn't bliss. We need to learn. We need to step back so that we can SEE just who God is. God is love.

I have been working lately with precious metal clay, when heat is applied around the perimeter of the piece, the piece will suddenly "flame up" as the impurities (the binding material) is removed from the piece. The impurities in us, the non-love will be the thing that FLAMES up off of us (the precious metal is not harmed, WE are not harmed) but the binding agents, the things which bind us, this non-love in us which keeps us bound to sin will flame up off of us. ALL of us. God's fire is the refining fire. When the heat of His love permeates our being, our non-love is being removed, this impurity... is removed. This binding agent... is removed. Then what you have left is pure beautiful silver... pure beautiful love.  We are all being formed in His image. Each in God's own timing, and in God's own way. Hallelujah.

By the way...before the piece is finished, it is opaque... when it has been refined and polished... it has a mirror finish. Guess whose image will be in the reflection? 

 

[WhiteWings]

When the heat of His love permeates our being, our non-love is being removed, this impurity... is removed.

I think there will be very skinny people in heaven...

By the way...before the piece is finished, it is opaque... when it has been refined and polished... it has a mirror finish. Guess whose image will be in the reflection? 

Potter Sparrow

[natcat86]

Don't you think God has the power to repeat that (or something similar) for each person that ever lived?

I do think God has the power to do that, I was just wondering if he will. I really hope so.

Hey nat... If you start to see sin as that which is NON-love... and that sin comes from non-love... and GOD IS LOVE... I believe that God's love will burn off that in us which is NON-love. When God fills us... then will we be sinless. Our beings will be infused with love.

We have to go through this contrast first in order to understand what Love is. Otherwise we would just be as ignorant as Adam and Eve. Ignorance isn't bliss. We need to learn. We need to step back so that we can SEE just who God is. God is love.

I have been working lately with precious metal clay, when heat is applied around the perimeter of the piece, the piece will suddenly "flame up" as the impurities (the binding material) is removed from the piece. The impurities in us, the non-love will be the thing that FLAMES up off of us (the precious metal is not harmed, WE are not harmed) but the binding agents, the things which bind us, this non-love in us which keeps us bound to sin will flame up off of us. ALL of us. God's fire is the refining fire. When the heat of His love permeates our being, our non-love is being removed, this impurity... is removed. This binding agent... is removed. Then what you have left is pure beautiful silver... pure beautiful love.  We are all being formed in His image. Each in God's own timing, and in God's own way. Hallelujah.

By the way...before the piece is finished, it is opaque... when it has been refined and polished... it has a mirror finish. Guess whose image will be in the reflection? 

 

Thats beautiful Sparrow thank you. I wasn't thinking of sin as non- love but when you put it like that it makes lots of sense as to how God will over come our sinful nature. Lots of good points to think about! My mum, Cat, got an email from a Rabi who said the Jews believe that Gehenna is like a laundro-mat, where the fire cleans your soul. I love how God is peicing together all these little tid bits I've been hearing over the last year. I can almost see each peice of the puzzle fall into place in my mind as I'm learning!

 

[jabcat]

I have been working lately with precious metal clay, when heat is applied around the perimeter of the piece, the piece will suddenly "flame up" as the impurities (the binding material) is removed from the piece. The impurities in us, the non-love will be the thing that FLAMES up off of us (the precious metal is not harmed, WE are not harmed) but the binding agents, the things which bind us, this non-love in us which keeps us bound to sin will flame up off of us. ALL of us. God's fire is the refining fire. When the heat of His love permeates our being, our non-love is being removed, this impurity... is removed. This binding agent... is removed. Then what you have left is pure beautiful silver... pure beautiful love.  We are all being formed in His image. Each in God's own timing, and in God's own way. Hallelujah.

By the way...before the piece is finished, it is opaque... when it has been refined and polished... it has a mirror finish. Guess whose image will be in the reflection? 

Thats beautiful Sparrow thank you. I wasn't thinking of sin as non- love but when you put it like that it makes lots of sense as to how God will over come our sinful nature. Lots of good points to think about! My mum, Cat, got an email from a Rabi who said the Jews believe that Gehenna is like a laundro-mat, where the fire cleans your soul. I love how God is peicing together all these little tid bits I've been hearing over the last year. I can almost see each peice of the puzzle fall into place in my mind as I'm learning!

 

 

[jesushandsarekindhands]

It means both Nat, but Jesus paid for everyones sins.
We can have the 'life' he came to bring here and now, or we can have it when we die, (end/death of sin) either way Jesus will drag us all to him because we were made for God and like a hat is made for the head so we only perfectly 'fit' with God.  One day everyone will realize that sin only brings destruction and ruin and misery and come to revere, respect and love the great God that gave everyone life and turn from their sins, bow knee to God and basically proclaim how great he is and how he was right all along lol.

Thanks, I can agree with that. One thing though, I think that I do understand why sin is wrong, which makes it all the worse when I do sin, I cant claim ingnorance. What do you think will happen when we die so we will be able to stop sinning. One of the main arguments against UR from my pastor is if God let everyone in it wouldn't be like heaven it would be just like earth, and I think, blummin eck if He let just this church in as it is now it would feel like heaven for about 0.0000000001 seconds! So whatever he does to bring us to life in the next life, does that stop us from sinning. Or must we all go through the lake of fire. 


Nat

Some of us will need a miracle to purge us into a people worthy of God, sadly that includes myself.  Im not sure how God will do it Nat, i just know he can...I just hope he's merciful on me, his humble (yet charming and incredibly handsome) follower lol.

[rosered]

 

 great posts everyone !!    I read them all ..    in the old  Testament  hell meant  the  grave ...   in the New    Jesus speaks of the  white sepulchres/1 burial 2 / a grave    the self righteous   who  study the word and  with the intent/motive  of their hearts   judge others with a death sentence   as if they are unworthy of Gods love /mercy / grace ..
 

 Mat 23:27   Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all uncleanness.
 
   I  have  also  noticed
 
  also in Gen 1  when God made Adam  /spirit  He was   first  created  in the image of God  male / female ADAM
 
  in Gen 2  he Adam was formed out of the dust of the ground /flesh and breathed the  breath of  life in him makeing him a /living soul
 
  To me the grave/hell   is for the  flesh literally   GOD being true to His Word you shall die from eating of the tree of  knowledge of good and evil
 the Lord  did not want to keep mankind/ adam in this   constant state   forever 

  and  now back to   the  soul/ symbolically speaking  because of sin making the spirit unclean perhaps  , the feeling of  being seperated   from God   that feeling of  unworthy    and    or being  independant of God   doing as you  choose   , I have considered this because  its sort of was my own course   before the Lord come to help me , to me   its the washing of the water of   the Word that   renews us  being prepared of  by the Lords Spirit of holiness  for change  and purity 

  I dont explain it very well thats why I dont  try to much these days 
 hope it helps somehow though ..
 
  in his peace 
 

[WhiteWings]

Don't you think God has the power to repeat that (or something similar) for each person that ever lived?

I do think God has the power to do that, I was just wondering if he will. I really hope so.

Sure. You can hope it's true. I think there is enough proof elsewhere that something like that will happen.
Your pastor just assumes God is unable or doesn't want to convert all people. I think otherwise.
Plus don't overlook my other remark. Are the ones that are let into heaven equally holy as, say, Jesus?
If not, isn't there a risk that those people are millions of years turn heaven into a sinners place?
Or do you think God has a whole bag of tricks to prevent that?

I know all of the above is without a single scripture to back it up. (you already have read many on this forum)
But I can state 2 absolute facts:
#1: Paul was instantly converted against his will. He wasn't seeking/believing/etc Jesus. That proves God has power.
#2: There is not even one verse in the Bible that even vagualy hints toward the idea that God failed at something.

[natcat86]

I can state 2 absolute facts:
#1: Paul was instantly converted against his will. He wasn't seeking/believing/etc Jesus. That proves God has power.
#2: There is not even one verse in the Bible that even vagualy hints toward the idea that God failed at something.

I agree with those two facts. I also agree very much that no one is as ready as Jesus was to enter heaven. Even the disciples, Paul calling himself the worst sinner, even they would have messed it up if they had entered as they were. I think the idea that something happens after we die to make us exceptable for heaven is good proof of UR. It certainly puts an end to the "well if he let everyone in it would be just like earth!" argument.

[WhiteWings]

I agree with those two facts. I also agree very much that no one is as ready as Jesus was to enter heaven.

Yep. If the Bible teaches that one seed of truth planted in your heart/mind/soul can slowly convert you to something good then personally I also fear that one bit of impurity left can turn things into a mess. That is if God doesn't some perfect cleaning before you enter heaven.
Question to you. Does your pastor believe that satan/devil/lucifer once was at the throne of God and rebelled and the 'fell out of heaven'?
If so that would mean there was something unpure in heaven at least once. I'm not promoting the idea of a fallen angel.
I'm just saying if you pastor says nothing slightly unpure can't enter heaven what was satan doing there?

[Raggedy Anne]

What a golden thread this one is.  I'm so glad I took the time to read it.   Makes a lot of sense, and isn't it marvelous to think on such things as these.

When I was in Missouri back in the summer of '07 and met Mercy, Tinka, and Juli and several others at a UR Conference, we girls talked non-stop about spiritual things.  I had my son with me - he was only 12 at the time, and I think he was quite stunned by our excitement to be able to pour out our thoughts with such gusto because I don't talk much out loud about spiritual things at home.  I would, except that no one wants to talk about these truths (certainly not obsessively) and I do not want to get on people's nerves.  So if you have the opportunity to go to a UR Conference you will likely enjoy it very much -- it's like a little trip to heaven 

Anne

[Beloved Servant]

Yes, Anne, I know what you mean.
To have fellowship with the Mind of Christ is exhilarating.
But the Lord has seen fit to scatter it among the nations, yet again.
Nazareth on every continent!

[Beloved Servant]

Pray all who have ears in the near future will hear: Isn't that the carpenters son?

[natcat86]

Does your pastor believe that satan/devil/lucifer once was at the throne of God and rebelled and the 'fell out of heaven'?
If so that would mean there was something unpure in heaven at least once. I'm not promoting the idea of a fallen angel.
I'm just saying if you pastor says nothing slightly unpure can't enter heaven what was satan doing there?

Well as my pastor believes God is caught in some catch 22 into keeping the majority of His beloved creation in eternal conscious tourment I wouldn't say logic and reason is his strong suit. He is positively anti- intellectual and has a "don't ask questions unless they are pre-approved by me" kinda attitude. So...I think that if I asked him about that first steam would come out of his ears then he would just avoid the question, god moves in mysterious ways, we aren't supposed to understand everything.....etc.

That sounds harsh, I love my pastor but I have seriously lost respect for him in the last few weeks. I have realised what an angry, easily put out, small minded, proud man he is. If he made church more like a family it would be easy to have grace for those things like you do with family. But he has made it his career and put in a hierachy where the leaders have to act a certain way so you expect more from them. Anyway I'm in danger of being working myself up into un-loving thoughts about the man.

My opinion about Satan once being in heaven is that either its all figurative, a story so we can understand about good and evil more easily and there is no satan (not too convinced by that one).

Or

When there is a new heaven and a new earth there will be no room for sin from any created being. Because we wont be going to heaven as it is now will we, we'll we in the new heaven? (might be waaaaay off there)

Just my 

Natty the Novice 

[natcat86]

What a golden thread this one is.  I'm so glad I took the time to read it.   Makes a lot of sense, and isn't it marvelous to think on such things as these.

When I was in Missouri back in the summer of '07 and met Mercy, Tinka, and Juli and several others at a UR Conference, we girls talked non-stop about spiritual things.  I had my son with me - he was only 12 at the time, and I think he was quite stunned by our excitement to be able to pour out our thoughts with such gusto because I don't talk much out loud about spiritual things at home.  I would, except that no one wants to talk about these truths (certainly not obsessively) and I do not want to get on people's nerves.  So if you have the opportunity to go to a UR Conference you will likely enjoy it very much -- it's like a little trip to heaven 

Anne

Hey Anne,

This is a brand new experience for me, sharing with like minded people on this scale. I always thought me and my family were the odd ones out but turns out there are lots of us no-hell odd balls out there. 
The other forum that I attend is not like this at all, its all about the discussion, having the best style and proving things. I love the atmosphere here and just wish that I could fellowship with more people like you lovelies in real life.

Nat

[WhiteWings]

Does your pastor believe that satan/devil/lucifer once was at the throne of God and rebelled and the 'fell out of heaven'?
If so that would mean there was something unpure in heaven at least once. I'm not promoting the idea of a fallen angel.
I'm just saying if you pastor says nothing slightly unpure can't enter heaven what was satan doing there?

Well as my pastor believes God is caught in some catch 22 into keeping the majority of His beloved creation in eternal conscious tourment I wouldn't say logic and reason is his strong suit.

God being caught in a catch 22 sounds like  things are not going the way He prefers them to be. So His will is not fully done.
"I do all my pleasure" "My counsil shall stand" etc come to mind.

He is positively anti- intellectual and has a "don't ask questions unless they are pre-approved by me" kinda attitude. So...I think that if I asked him about that first steam would come out of his ears then he would just avoid the question, god moves in mysterious ways, we aren't supposed to understand everything.....etc.

So pastor, does that mean you don't know what you are teaching?

That sounds harsh, I love my pastor but I have seriously lost respect for him in the last few weeks. I have realised what an angry, easily put out, small minded, proud man he is.

I can understand it a bit. He's being confronted with his own limitations. Used to be looked up to. But then he can't even answer the most basic question about satan asked by a sheep of his flock. Or you stirred up a deeply locked away doubt he has for years. I mean if someone that has made his career out of Christianity he surely must have heard about all kind of doctrines in his life.

If he made church more like a family it would be easy to have grace for those things like you do with family. But he has made it his career and put in a hierachy where the leaders have to act a certain way so you expect more from them. Anyway I'm in danger of being working myself up into un-loving thoughts about the man.

I think a hierachy is needed. In a 'class' there needs to be a leader. Otherwise it gets an unproductive mess. But that doesn't mean not listening. In that case handing out 300 hours of audio recordings once a year would be much less work...

My opinion about Satan....

There have been very lenghty discussions about that on this and other UR forums. Not all views are the same. I was not trying to start another satan in heaven discussion; I was just trying to use your pastors logic against himself. Satan lived in heaven? Fine. But then you can't claim it's impossible to have sin in heaven. Just because about every denomination (even including islam) agrees that satan is not the symbol for the perfect rightous man....

Once again I'm not forcing a view on you or anyone but on this site (halfway down the page) you will find the LoF series. Who, what is satan. Was or wasn't he in heaven. Etc is part of that 600 page 'article'. AFAIK many people on this forum agree with most of that article. http://bible-truths.com/
That was the only reason I mentioned satan in heaven.

[rosered]

My opinion about Satan once being in heaven is that either its all figurative, a story so we can understand about good and evil more easily and there is no satan (not too convinced by that one).

Or

When there is a new heaven and a new earth there will be no room for sin from any created being. Because we wont be going to heaven as it is now will we, we'll we in the new heaven? (might be waaaaay off there)

Just my 

Natty the Novice   

    Hi Nat 
 I so enjoy  your replys! 

  Being honest is one of the first things  ,  we all get to experience 

   comming clean from all the religious  garb lol...
 
  I too feel  that   "churchy " stuffed suit  feels stiff ..  ha ha!
  not  being  real and honest in your own heart  , thats what  made me leave  a church I was attending   years ago ..
 
  we are told to do everything in the right  heart/intent  or its worthless /vain  work/action
  I felt many times out of obligation  to do what my heart was not willing to , and the empty  feeling just incresed!   
 the Lord freed me one day  I was  grateful for that day! 
 and as far as  satan /aka  adversity    being in heaven there will no longer be a need for  that type of learning experience /discernment   when  perfect / mature  comes  ! 

[natcat86]

If he made church more like a family it would be easy to have grace for those things like you do with family. But he has made it his career and put in a hierachy where the leaders have to act a certain way so you expect more from them. Anyway I'm in danger of being working myself up into un-loving thoughts about the man.

I think a hierachy is needed. In a 'class' there needs to be a leader. Otherwise it gets an unproductive mess. But that doesn't mean not listening. In that case handing out 300 hours of audio recordings once a year would be much less work...

I agree there needs to be a hierachy, but  modelled more on the family than the corporate hierachy found in most churches. If he were to act more like a father/older brother then there would still be leadership but with the familiarity and loving, shared experience family structure brings rather than the formal relationship you have with a boss or head teacher! That way if you saw the pastor struggle in his walk you could give support in a more personal way. Also when someone is a pastor it is hard to see them as a fellow christian with struggles the same as anyone else. They are always "on the job" so to speak. (thats me speaking for myself there, I mean its hard for me to see them as a fellow christian..!)

I'm trying to understand his resistance to learning the truth about (the lack of) hell. I can see why it would be hard to admit to being wrong about something so HUGE for the entire time you have been a christian. His brother died tragically some years back with out ever making "a commitment" and so he must think that his dear brother is in hell!! If he even lets a little bit of hope in that that might not be the case and then finds out he is wrong it would probably be like loosing him all over again.

I'm going to ask on sunday why God never mentioned hell to adam, why moses never mentioned it, why its not mentioned once in the whole old testiment. (I'll leave out the gehenna stuff for now, that would be overkill I think!)

I shall definately take a look at the LoF series, its an area I haven't looked into yet so thanks for pointing me in that direction. hehe Its as if God is like, right now on to the lake of fire.... 

[natcat86]

  Hi Nat 
 I so enjoy  your replys! 

  Being honest is one of the first things  ,  we all get to experience 

   comming clean from all the religious  garb lol...
 
  I too feel  that   "churchy " stuffed suit  feels stiff ..  ha ha!
  not  being  real and honest in your own heart  , thats what  made me leave  a church I was attending   years ago ..
 
  we are told to do everything in the right  heart/intent  or its worthless /vain  work/action
  I felt many times out of obligation  to do what my heart was not willing to , and the empty  feeling just incresed!   
 the Lord freed me one day  I was  grateful for that day! 
 and as far as  satan /aka  adversity    being in heaven there will no longer be a need for  that type of learning experience /discernment   when  perfect / mature  comes  ! 

Yo!

Thanks for that, its exactly how I feel at the mo. Its very difficult though. A large bit of my struggle over whether I should still attend church or not is because I've only been back in church for a year after a rather *cough* miss-spent youth and I know that if I left there would be some who would think that I was flaking out again, back sliding, blah blah blah. But the truth is it would be because I now know the Lord better than ever before!! 

 My  ego/pride/insecurities all add up to not wanting people to think badly of me. But then that just makes me think I need to leave more, when you are part of an institution that measures spiritual maturity on church attendence! Yikes!

Anyhoo, since being on this forum i have had more courage to witness and it feels so good telling people the really good news. Its like, listen I have good news, no catch, its just all good!! No buts, no expiration date, just really good news!! 

I know I'm waaaay off topic now but seeing as I brought up the topic I hope you'll all forgive me


Nat